bernard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most of what you wrote is irrelevant to what I
> wrote. I was commenting on the YOUTube video
> posted by Van Kirk-- its your evidence not mine. I
> did not say that when the guide stood in front of
> the Castillo and clapped a chirp was not produced
> and later a whirring sound was heard from the
> Mercado. What I DID say was that in the video Van
> Kirk posted, the guide stood IN FRONT of the T of
> W and clapped his hands neither a chirp nor a buzz
> was produced.

I'd agree with Bernard's quoted statement if he changed its last word to "heard". That is a step closer to my intent. Wayne points out that this is a poor recording. An obvious response is to make a better recording.

Bernard, I'm willing to accept earwitness accounts of a quetzal chirp and a serpent hiss at the TOW for now. Do you have a problem with that?

I believed you were asking for evidence that chirp and hissing sounds are actually heard at the TOW. But I accept that you meant only to remark that none were heard on said recording. I accept that answer.

But of course it begs the really interesting questions: were they heard, were they recognized, and did they have meaning? The cognitive implications of the recorded evidence seem more than possible. They seem inevitable.

> You have not responded to my prior post with
> scientific questions, which asked whether you had,
> in fact recorded a quetzal identical chirp when a
> handclap was made in front of the T of W.

No Bernard. I don't remember ever hearing the chirped echo or the serpent hiss from the TOW. Wayne has. He shows that others have. As previously disclosed, my high frequency hearing loss would no doubt inhibit my hearing the high frequency sounds of hissing. But I would assume that the hearing acuity of the Maya at that time was at least as good of our own and almost certainly better.

There could have been a very short and weak chirp from the TOC staircase. But I think the geometry here does not favor that. (Emitted echoes are too far off a staircase central axis.)

All linear staircases have a high proclivity to produce chirps. Why not? It's their song! A favorable geometry is needed of course. You seldom or ever hear such chirps because they are masked by the high background noise level of contemporary civilization.

It's typically quieter at ancient sites. Much quieter. We hear so much more when background noise levels are low. Some of what we hear can be useful information for survival.

Because of the slow growth of background noise level over human history, few noticed. But humans are adapted natural soundscapes. The important message here is that our aural world is very different from that of our ancient subjects. If we would understand their world we should also seek to hear it as they did.

Should have asked how many stairs are needed to produce a discernable "chirp?
Ive conducted informal experiments with a few listeners.

For listeners in the plane of the central axis, chirp length [sec] is proportional to the number of stairs. This is true for any linear staircase of fixed geometry.

My informal finding? Chirps may be heard as few as 4-8 stairs. I'll bet this experiment has been done before and better, and resides somewhere in the psychoacoustic literature.

---------------------------------

< My question concerning the necessity of 91 steps with
> the given dimensions of the Castillo for the
> production of the quetzal chirp also applies since
> the T of W does not have the same dimensions or
> 91 steps.

Yes, Bernard, different geometries produce different sounds. Having exactly 91 stairs is of great importance for the calendar but is of little significance for the chirp.

> > Are you arguing in your post that a
> handclap in front of the Castillo will strike the
> T of W stairs and produce a quetzal chirp even
> though the incident sound wave is coming from the
> direction of the Castillo?

No Bernard. That's not what I meant.

The quetzal sound heard by the listener is made by sound scattered from the pyramid staircase. It does not come from the TOW.

(Geometry Refresher: The listener stands on the axis of the pyramid staircases, facing the staircase. Listener's feet are on a line described by the intersection of two planes. The ground is the horizontal plane. The other is a vertical plane that is perpendicular to the ground. The vertical plane cuts through the center Kukulkan staircases on opposite sides.)

----------------------------

Bernard. You keep insisting that intentionality must be proven for the quetzal hypothesis before it may be tested. Now that's just silly. Isn't it? I must believe that you realize that hypothesis construction and testing are bedrock requirements of scientific research.

This research is different because it is multidisciplinary. Acoustics and archaeology together. Wayne's observations and questions motivated my investigation. I was responsible for providing a scientific framework for the acoustics.

But we needed Mayanist collaborators. Since we had none we did our best in their absence.
Please recognize how bitterly ironic this seems to us. A self-described spokesman for the Mayanist community that refused our pleas for help with the archaeology now complain that we didn't do it right. Step in and help!

Back to my point about hypothesis testing. I think all Science relies on hypothesis testing. Some elementary texts say hypothesis construction is the third block in hypothesis testing. (1) Ask questions. (2) Do background research, (3) Construct hypothesis.

> The sonic crystals reference has the same problem
> of proving intentionality that we have been
> dealing with from the beginning.

> > The Spanish acoustical researcher has no qualifications to comment on the intentions of > > the Maya either.
>
Boy, are you wrong on that one, Bernard. We first met in 2002 at a NYC Meeting of the ASA (acoustics). He reported a most interesting archaeoacoustic field investigation of sounds at Maya site with circle stones. He's one of the stars in this new field of sonic crystals. Finding many useful applications. I'm proud to know him.