Hermione Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> David Lubman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Katherine Reece Wrote:
> >
> > > Wayne, David Lubman is not a mesoamericanist,
> > he's an acoustical engineer. May I ask, is there
> > a mesoamericanist who agrees with you?
> > >
> > > Kat

Certainly. How about Professor Brian M. Fagan, professor Emeritus at the University of California at Santa Barbara? Though not specifically a mesoamericanist, he is a distinguished archaeological generalist. (Wikipedia entry at [en.wikipedia.org])

Professor Fagan cites my archaeoacoustics work at Chichen Itza in his forthcoming introductory, university-level textbook on archaeology.

"Ancient Lives: An Introduction to Archaeology and Prehistory, 5/e,"

[www.pearsonhighered.com]

On p 35: "Acoustic effects of all kinds were an important part of public rituals in many ancient societies. An acoustic engineer, David Lubman, has spent 12 years studying the acoustics at the Maya city of Chichen Itza (see Figure 2.3). He believes that the Maya used the acoustic effects of the steep stairway of the Kukulcan temple, where sound produces an eerie birdlike echo. Lubman compared the acoustic sound print of the quetzal bird, much revered by the Maya, with that of the Kukulkan echo. They are identical.Here, as elsewhere in the ancient world, the natural and supernatural worlds, animals, humans, and mythic creatures, formed part of the cosmos, which was why reproducing evocative sounds was
so important.

Today, rock bands use elaborate acoustic systems at their concerts with audiences of thousands; politicians rely heavily on state-of-the-art public address systems. How did ancient priests control crowds and make themselves heard in front of large audiences?
Again, it appears they relied on acoustics. The great Ball Court at Chichen Itza has smooth stone walls carefully positioned to reflect sound, somewhat akin to today’s band shells (Figure 2.3). Carefully designed galleries pushed sound waves down the court, somewhat
like speaking through a long tube. These would have allowed a ruler to address crowds of up to 3,000 people without using a microphone, visitors to hear whispers from 460 feet (140 meters) away. Ball games were important rituals, so the sound effects on the court would have added an eerie dimension to the ceremony, perhaps compounded with hallucinogenic
drugs. According to some sources, the sounds from the court are said to have been the voices of the Lords of the Underworld. According to Lubman, a ball striking the court would have echoes four times a second, producing an effect somewhat like that of the rattles of a rattlesnake.

The study of ancient acoustics has hardly begun, but clearly our forebears were experts at
producing exotic caves, whether in the depths of late Ice Age painted caves in Europe, or in Greek and Roman amphitheaters like that at Epidauros,Greece, where soft voices travel long distances"


> > How about INAH's own Dr. Peter Schmid? Roughly ten or twelve years ago I happened
> > upon a TV program that filmed Dr. Schmid and anotherINAH
> > official demonstrating the chirped echo at Chichen Itza's temple of Kukulkan. Schmid > > claimed they knew about the chirped echo all along. I think Schmid also opined that it > intentional,but a fresh viewing is needed for certainty. It would be decisive if someone > > on this list has copied that video or can get it from INAH.
>
> It would be helpful if you had more details of the film in question, as a Google search is > throwing up nothing at the moment.
>
> I take it that, by Dr. Schmid, you mean Dr. Peter
> Schmidt? I found some mentions of his work here,
> but nothing about chirping.

Yes, Kat. Dr. Schmid is probably Chichen Itza's most distinguished mesoamericanist. On TV he seemed sanguine and unsurprised about the chirped echo that I had brought to their attention. At the same time and earlier, evidence for acoustics at Maya sites by Wayne Van Kirk and other advocates (including mesoamerican archaeologists) was being summarily dismissed. To me this suggested that differences of opinion about acoustics existed between mesoamerican archaeologists at that time.


> > Why was the film made? At that time, INAH
> > officials may have felt embarrassed or
> threatened
> > that a potentially major discovery was made
> right
> > under their noses by a novice and outsider
> (me).
> > Perhaps this film was an institutional
> response.
> >
> > Aztlan discussion list officials had better
> reason
> > to be embarrassed. As Wayne Van Kirk has
> > explained, Aztlan moderators were hostile to
> > archaeoacoustics, cutting off discussions
> despite
> > sympathetic posts from Mesoamericanist
> listeros.
>
> Can you please note that discussion of moderation
> on other boards is not allowed on Ma'at.
>
> > What’s happened since then?
> >
> > In 2006, Cambridge University’s McDonald
> Institute
> > for Archaeological Research published a
> monograph
> > "Archaeoacoustics", edited by respected
> British
> > archaeologists Chris Scarre and Graeme
> Lawson. I
> > reviewed it for J. Acoustical Society of
> America
> > (ASA), arguably the world's foremost learned
> > journal for scientific acoustics.
> >
> > Mesoamericanists presented papers on the
> acoustics
> > of pre-Columbian buildings at the Second
> > Pan-American/Iberian Meeting on Acoustics in
> > Cancun, Mexico (October, 2010.)
>
> That would be this conference, presumably. To
> which papers there, from which Mesoamerican
> specialists in particular, are you referring? All
> I could find were papers from you yourself, and
> Sergio Beristain (President of the Mexican
> Institute of Acoustics).

Here it is, with authors, titles, abstracts and institutions.
:
[scitation.aip.org]

You will see that archaeoacoustics, once dismissed as New Age drivel, has become widely accepted. Even some of the diminishing number of non-believers recognize archaeoacoustics as the hottest new field of archaeological research. It seems evident that archaeoacoustics is entering the canons of archaeology. This is consistent with another well-known recent trend to sensory archaeology. Of all the senses besides vision, hearing is making the biggest splash so far.

>
> > Institutions represented include Mexico's
> UNAM,
> > INAH, and USA's Stanford Univ.
> >
> > Several universities have started
> archaeoacoustics
> > programs.
> >
> > The annual meeting of the AAAS (American
> > Association for the Advancement of science)
> in
> > Vancouver, Canada includes an
> archaeoacoustics
> > symposium jointly sponsored by AAAS Sections
> on
> > Anthropology and Engineering.
> >
> > A prominent archaeologist learning acoustics
> for a
> > multidisciplinary study at Chavin de Huantar
> > (Peru) is Stanford University's John Rick.

Kat, here's the website: [aaas.confex.com]
>
> Archaeology meets DSP: CCRMA at Chavín de Huántar
> (Blog post, with links).
>
> (Cross reference to a previous post on John Rick
> and conch shells).
>
> > He said
> > something important for archaeologists to
> > recognize: The most surprising thing he
> learned is
> > that acoustics is a "hard science" (i.e.,
> > acoustics has authority to make statements
> based
> > on irrefutable physical laws.)
>
> What citation do you have for this, please? I
> can't find anything online.

[dearbaby-dearbaby.blogspot.com].

It's not the exact quote I sought but says essentially the same thing.


" ... Rick, in turn, praises the “acoustic magicians” of CCRMA*: “The most important thing I’ve learned is that acoustics is not some sort of soft science. Acoustics is real science. I’ve had my eyes opened time and time again by the analytical work that I’ve watched."

“You could say the acoustics people are the new priests of Chavín,” he said. [+]"


*CCRMA = Center for Computer Research in Music and Acoustics at Stanford University

> > Certain dismissive statements made about
> chirped
> > echo acoustics by dissenting Mesoamericanists
> are
> > at odds with those laws, or with accepted
> beliefs
> > in the scientific acoustical community. But
> > archaeologists and acousticians working
> together
> > may reconcile archaeological belief with
> > acoustical science to produce new
> understandings.
>
> However, as Karl Taube, speaking of the alleged
> quetzal echo, says in this National Geographic
> article:Quote:"It's an interesting phenomenon ...
> The question is whether it was intentional or not.
>
> Hermione
> Director/Owner/Moderator - The Hall of Ma'at

Best regards,

David Lubman
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