David,
First, you might want to note that Katherine Reece and I are two completely separate people.
Second, we usually ask posters to snip irrelevant material from their replies, as otherwise posts quickly become unwieldy to manage and difficult to read.
Katherine Reece Wrote:
> > > > Wayne, David Lubman is not a
> mesoamericanist,
> > > he's an acoustical engineer. May I ask,
> is there
> > > a mesoamericanist who agrees with you?
David Lubman Wrote:
> How about Professor Brian M. Fagan,
> professor Emeritus at the University of California
> at Santa Barbara? Though not specifically a
> mesoamericanist, he is a distinguished
> archaeological generalist.
But Kat was asking specifically about mesoamericanists, not archaeological generalists, no matter how reputable.
David Lubman Wrote:
> > > How about INAH's own Dr. Peter Schmid?
> Roughly ten or twelve years ago I happened
> > > upon a TV program that filmed Dr. Schmid
> and anotherINAH
> > > official demonstrating the chirped echo
> at Chichen Itza's temple of Kukulkan. Schmid
> > > claimed they knew about the chirped echo
> all along. I think Schmid also opined that it
> > intentional,but a fresh viewing is needed for
> certainty. It would be decisive if someone >
> > on this list has copied that video or can get
> it from INAH.
Hermione wrote:
> > It would be helpful if you had more details
> of the film in question, as a Google search is
> > throwing up nothing at the moment.
> > I take it that, by Dr. Schmid, you mean Dr.
> Peter
> > Schmidt? I found some mentions of his work
> here,
> > but nothing about chirping.
David Lubman Wrote:
> Dr. Schmid is probably Chichen Itza's
> most distinguished mesoamericanist.
In the 1990s, Schmidt was indeed in charge of the
INAH Proyecto Arqueológico Chichén Itzá.
David Lubman Wrote:
> On TV he
> seemed sanguine and unsurprised about the chirped
> echo that I had brought to their attention.
Do you have a citation indicating Dr. Schmidt’s actual support for the “chirping” theory, though? I still can’t seem to find anything online.
> At the
> same time and earlier, evidence for acoustics at
> Maya sites by Wayne Van Kirk and other advocates
> (including mesoamerican archaeologists)
> was being
> summarily dismissed. To me this suggested that
> differences of opinion about acoustics existed
> between mesoamerican archaeologists at that time.
Do you have the names of the particular mesoamerican archaeologists who supported Wayne Van Kirk’s theories?
David Lubman Wrote:
> > > Mesoamericanists presented papers on
> the
> > acoustics
> > > of pre-Columbian buildings at the
> Second
> > > Pan-American/Iberian Meeting on
> Acoustics in
> > > Cancun, Mexico (October, 2010.)
Hermione wrote:
> > That would be this conference, presumably.
> To
> > which papers there, from which Mesoamerican
> > specialists in particular, are you referring?
> All
> > I could find were papers from you yourself,
> and
> > Sergio Beristain (President of the Mexican
> > Institute of Acoustics).
David Lubman Wrote:
> Here it is, with authors, titles, abstracts and
> institutions.
Thank you for the link.
For the most part, the authors of those papers appeared to be working in such fields as music, or acoustic science. I did find one author, Francisca Zaquett, from the Centro de Estudios Mayas, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de Mexico. But her work seems to be connected with “horn” effects at sites such as Palenque - [
www.physorg.com]. I couldn’t find any mention of her involvement in, or endorsement of, the “chirping” at Chichen Itza.
David Lubman Wrote:
> You will see that archaeoacoustics, once dismissed
> as New Age drivel, has become widely accepted.
I think that might be going rather too far. I’ve already mentioned Karl Taube’s query about whether the claimed acoustic effects could have been intended by the original architects – a sentiment cautiously echoed even by some acoustics experts themselves, such as Nico Declerq of the University of Ghent:
Quote
But did the pyramid's architects know exactly what they were doing? Declercq's calculations show that, although there is evidence that they engineered the pyramid to produce surprising sounds, they probably couldn't have predicted exactly what they would resemble. [
www.nature.com]
> Even some of the diminishing number of
> non-believers recognize archaeoacoustics as the
> hottest new field of archaeological research. It
> seems evident that archaeoacoustics is entering
> the canons of archaeology. This is consistent with
> another well-known recent trend to sensory
> archaeology. Of all the senses besides vision,
> hearing is making the biggest splash so far.
It doesn’t matter how “hot” and “splashing” the field of archaeoacoustics might be … It still has to be shown that the original architects intentionally engineered the acoustic effects now being claimed at sites such as Chichen Itza.
David Lubman Wrote:
(John Rick)
> > > He said
> > > something important for archaeologists
> to
> > > recognize: The most surprising thing he
> > learned is
> > > that acoustics is a "hard science"
> (i.e.,
> > > acoustics has authority to make
> statements
> > based
> > > on irrefutable physical laws.)
> >
Hermione wrote:
> > What citation do you have for this, please?
David Lubman Wrote:
> It's not the exact quote I sought but says
> essentially the same thing.
>
>
> " ... Rick, in turn, praises the “acoustic
> magicians” of CCRMA*: “The most important thing
> I’ve learned is that acoustics is not some sort of
> soft science. Acoustics is real science. I’ve had
> my eyes opened time and time again by the
> analytical work that I’ve watched."
>
> “You could say the acoustics people are the new
> priests of Chavín,” he said. [+]"
>
> *CCRMA = Center for Computer Research in Music and
> Acoustics at Stanford University
But the question of whether or not acoustics is a
hard, or soft, or real science is a different question from whether the original architects deliberately engineered the acoustic effects now being claimed at sites such as Chichen Itza.
Hermione
Director/Moderator - The Hall of Ma'at
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