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May 6, 2024, 12:37 pm UTC    
November 23, 2011 11:23PM
WVK Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hermione Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> ---
> > If the site suffered incursions from invaders
> who
> > carved rattles and feathers over stelae that
> > already had glyphs carved on them, it's
> difficult
> > to see how those invaders could have played a
> part
> > in designing original architecture capable
> of
> > producing alleged rattlesnake noises.
>
> "The borders of stairs leading to platforms on the
> first and second levels of the Caracol are
> decorated with intertwined scaled rattlesnakes
> that are reversed so that the heads of one lie
> next to the rattles of another. The classic Mayan
> period rattlesnake imagery on this building is
> further evidence that crotalus durissus was a
> "deeply venerated cult
> animal at Chichen Itza before the Toltec
> incursion."
>
>
I have to stop reading this stuff its bad for my blood presure

I wish people would read the standard textbooks on the Maya instead of whatever turns up on Google. AARGH

Sharer, R.J. and L. P. Traxler 2006 The Ancient Maya 6th ed Stanford: Stanford University Press

Quote

p. 559 ... in purely chronological terms, the rise of Chichen Itza began during the Late Classic period. But its ascendancy as the dominant capital in Yucatan corresponds to the Terminal Classic—in fact, Chichen Itza’s dominance appears to have lasted later than that of any other Classic city, until ca. AD 1050-1100. . . .

The expansion of commerce by the Gulf Coast Chontal groups [BOM these were the people who brought Central Mexican ideology] was a major catalyst for the socioeconomic and political changes of the Terminal Classic.. . .”

p. 560 According to the Yucatan chronicles written during the Spanish colonial era, a new group of peoples arrived in Yucatan beginning ca. AD 800. The chroniclers called these new people the Itza, or people “who speak our language brokenly” (probably referring to a Mayan language only partially intelligible to Yukatek Mayan speakers).

p. 563 The Carnegie excavations found that the upper platform of the caracole as associated with a stela dated to 906. [BOM Terminal Classic and after the incursion of the Chontal]Round structures were often temples associated with Ehecatl, the wind-deity aspect of Quetzalcoatl [K’uk’ulcan] in Central Mexico, so it is likely that the Caracol had a similar function at Chichen Itza.

p. 568-9 “Within a century or so of its founding Chichen Itza grew to dominate central Yucatan.. . Its success in maintaining control over is vast domain lay in its economic prosperity, an effective political system, and a new religions ideology [BOM the renewed cult of Quetzalcoatl/K’uk’ulcan].. . . Finally, a new ideology centered on the cult of K’uk’ulcan also played a major role in inspiring confidence and in facilitating financial success and communication through out Mesoamerica. Chichen Itza, with its temples, Great Ball Court, and its sacred cenote, was the setting for major religions celebrations and also benefited from being a major pilgrimage destination.
The following make it crystal clear that the feathered serpent is an importation and is closely tied to a set of militaristic, human sacrifice, skull racks, gods eating hearts Central Mexican religious complex that is new to the Maya area and NOT Classic Maya

Lopez Austin, A. and L. Lopez Lujan 2001 Mexico’s Indigenous Past B. Ortiz de Montellano, trans. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press.

Lopez Austin and Lopez Lujan rather than Chontal etc. use the term “zuyuans” to describe the peoples that overran Yucatan.

Quote

p. 269 For several centuries after the end of the Classic, many waves of people migrated from the Gulf Coast to the areas of Chiapas and the Petén. Some of the clearest indications of these migrations are the early sculptures, made by a culture that has been called hybrid (mestiza), at sites on the Pasión River. J. Eric S. Thompson identified their place of origin as the border area between Tabasco and Campeche, and identified the invaders as Putun-Chontal, permeated with Central Mexican ideology. The invading waves followed several routes: toward the jungle, north to the Yucatán Peninsula, or across the course of the Chixoy River toward the high valleys of Guatemala.

Either gradually or radically, these men imposed a militaristic political order in which a few capitals tried to absorb all the surrounding native cities. It was said, that some of these invaders spoke a strange Maya language, that they practiced and preached exotic religious ideas, and had scandalous practices. In the north as well as in the south, the rulers of these new entities claimed to represent an individual called Feathered Serpent, and some of them actually called themselves that.
. . .
p. 271 On the basis of the contradictory colonial documents, it is believed that, at the end of the 10th Century, the first Zuyuá wave came to the Puuc Region and occupied the formerly powerful city of Uucil Abnal (later called Chichén Itzá). The paintings and sculptures of the city show the invaders with cylindrical helmets, protected by stylized butterfly pectorals, armed with spear throwers, and adorned with dorsal disks. Some helmets have a butterfly insignia or a descending bird as a mosaic design. The spear throwers are decorated with feather tufts. In short, they are dressed like warriors from Tula. In battle scenes they are led by the Feathered Serpent, and, if this were not enough, the tradition associated them to a ruler called Kukulkan, which like Quetzalcoatl, means “Feathered Serpent.”

After the Zuyuá conquered the native population, the Uucil Abnal became the political power in the Puuc Region. On the basis of some images of the court found in the substructure of the Temple of Warriors, we think it is possible that, from then on, there was a dual Zuyuá/Maya government. Apparently, a long time after the first wave, a second wave of Zuyuá came made up of people called Itzá by the sources. It is difficult to determine if they belonged to the same ethnic group. What is known for certain is, that the second wave were the ones who changed the old name of the city to Chichén Itzá. Their ruler was also called Kukulkan like his remote ancestor. Some time after that, other Zuyuá would establish Mayapán to the west.
. . .
p. 274 Zuyuá’s ideology can be seen archaeologically in Yucatán. It can be discerned in the arrangement of their buildings and their iconography, which responded to very specific ideas about the cosmos, ritual rules, and political organization. Above all, however, the architecture and iconography imitated elements found in the Tula of Central Mexico, which itself was the most prestigious terrestrial copy of the mythical Zuyuá.

The Zuyuá used architectural space in a very characteristic way. The small, dark rooms, where the rulers of the Classic contacted the gods, in an almost familiar way, and the relatively small throne rooms, were replaced by larger halls with flat roofs supported by columns, where a larger number of people participated in political decisions and in the religious ceremonies of the warrior orders. Simultaneously, the images of the feathered serpent, a mythical being part human, bird, and reptile, chac mools, and atlantes, who supported the heavens or the surface of the earth above their heads, proliferated. Military power, converted into a sacred symbol, duplicated adornments, weapons and insignias originating in the West, rows of skulls, standard bearers and images of eagles and jaguars devourers of human hearts.

Even more than Tula, Chichén Itzá is the purest earthly expression of Zuyuá architecture, and it is an expression that harmoniously combines foreign and native styles. Its heart is the grand temple, which Landa identified as Kukulkan’s, where Puuc stylistic elements combine with Zuyuá effigies. Called El Castillo today, it is a pyramid with serpentine balustrade stairways on all four sides. The Ball court is the biggest and most impressive in Mesoamerica. The Temple of the Warriors sits on an exceptional platform with hypostyle corridors. In short, the city is a fitting earthly residence for the God, Kukulkan.
Compared to this we have from the Amazon description, an enthusiastic amateur

“Baldwin, acclaimed biographer of Edison, Man Ray and William Carlos Williams, jettisoned his "resolutely Eurocentric" outlook 10 years ago, when he first visited Mexico. [www.amazon.com]

who argues for a white Quetzalcoatl, as mentioned in one of the reviews on Amazon:

Quote

This review is from: Legends of the Plumed Serpent: Biography of a Mexican God (Hardcover)

This book simply re-hashes what other eurocentric writers have written over the past 400 years. It is full of inaccuracies and re-enforces stereotypes that hinder a deeper knowledge of the Quetzalcoatl phenomenon.

For Example, there is no mention that the often quoted claim that Quezalcoatl was a white man, dates only to the 1770's in Creole Mexico.

The "criollos" White Europeans that had the bad luck of being born on the American continent were considered less intelligent by the "peninsulares" or those actually born on the Spanish mainland. So the creoles began to create a "Mexican" national identity that boasted of the cultural heritage of the precolumbians (ironically, the ones that they had sought to exterminate 200 years earlier!) Instead of having Saint James (Sanitago or San Diego) come from Israel to Spain, they created the myth that Saint Thomas came to Mexico where he was considered a god... a white god.

The creation of a white Quetzalcoatl, and the parallel creation of the Guadalupe cult (that mirrored the original Guadalupe story in Estremadurra Spain), were meant to give the creoles equal status in the eyes of God (and thus make them equal to the Peninsulares). Never mid that this ideology did not include the indigenous, mestizo, and African slave communities that made up the vast majority of Mexicans, then as they do today.

This is why I consider this book a waste of paper. [www.amazon.com]

Bernard

(Formatted - Hermione)





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2011 04:38AM by Hermione.
Subject Author Posted

Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 08, 2011 12:09PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione September 11, 2011 11:01AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece September 11, 2011 11:46AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg September 11, 2011 09:14PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece September 11, 2011 11:54PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 12, 2011 10:57AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece September 12, 2011 03:44PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 12, 2011 08:05PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece September 13, 2011 04:27PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 13, 2011 07:54PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece September 13, 2011 08:35PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 14, 2011 10:04AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece September 14, 2011 12:16PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 14, 2011 01:27PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece September 14, 2011 05:20PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece September 14, 2011 07:25PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 15, 2011 10:07AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece September 15, 2011 04:40PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 16, 2011 10:58AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece September 16, 2011 12:25PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 16, 2011 02:47PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard September 13, 2011 08:45PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past (Edited)

WVK September 14, 2011 09:05AM

Moderation note

Katherine Reece September 14, 2011 12:18PM

Re: Moderation note

WVK September 14, 2011 01:12PM

Re: Moderation note

Hermione September 14, 2011 03:26PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past (Edited)

David Lubman November 16, 2011 09:39AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 14, 2011 09:37AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 14, 2011 10:55AM

Moderation Note

Katherine Reece September 14, 2011 12:19PM

Re: Moderation Note

WVK September 14, 2011 01:09PM

Re: Moderation Note

Hermione September 14, 2011 03:22PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 15, 2011 11:35AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece October 19, 2011 08:48PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 20, 2011 07:40PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece October 20, 2011 10:03PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 25, 2011 12:19PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Byrd October 25, 2011 11:16PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 26, 2011 10:12AM

Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Jammer October 28, 2011 01:27PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 28, 2011 07:47PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard October 28, 2011 08:28PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 29, 2011 09:37AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard October 29, 2011 10:12AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 29, 2011 12:51PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Jammer October 29, 2011 07:31AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard October 26, 2011 11:48AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 26, 2011 01:50PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard October 26, 2011 03:47PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 26, 2011 07:31PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard October 26, 2011 08:20PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 27, 2011 09:28AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Byrd October 27, 2011 12:41PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 27, 2011 01:53PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Byrd October 28, 2011 01:07PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 28, 2011 12:08PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Byrd October 28, 2011 01:15PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 28, 2011 03:22PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK October 30, 2011 10:09AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman November 08, 2011 06:16AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 08, 2011 08:59AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman November 13, 2011 09:41PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 14, 2011 09:57AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 14, 2011 11:27AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 15, 2011 12:53PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 15, 2011 03:02PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 16, 2011 03:59PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 16, 2011 05:11PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece November 16, 2011 06:33PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 16, 2011 08:10PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 18, 2011 11:05AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 17, 2011 10:22AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 18, 2011 11:07AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 18, 2011 12:05PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece November 20, 2011 11:55PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Jammer November 21, 2011 11:08AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman November 22, 2011 08:12AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 22, 2011 10:16AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 22, 2011 11:39AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 22, 2011 05:30PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 23, 2011 09:20AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard November 23, 2011 11:00AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 23, 2011 12:45PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 23, 2011 10:46AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 23, 2011 12:14PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 23, 2011 01:15PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 23, 2011 04:48PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 25, 2011 10:24AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK November 23, 2011 08:39PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard November 23, 2011 11:23PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK December 01, 2011 09:05PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece December 01, 2011 09:13PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK December 01, 2011 10:25PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK December 03, 2011 10:36AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK December 01, 2011 10:40PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman December 03, 2011 09:27PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione December 04, 2011 04:34AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard December 04, 2011 11:38PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece December 08, 2011 12:01PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione December 02, 2011 04:53PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman November 22, 2011 08:17PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 23, 2011 05:27AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Jammer November 23, 2011 08:21AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Sirfiroth November 23, 2011 10:12AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Jammer November 23, 2011 04:41PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman November 23, 2011 10:41PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 24, 2011 10:18AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece November 14, 2011 12:06PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman November 14, 2011 08:40PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece November 16, 2011 01:40PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman November 19, 2011 08:04PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece November 20, 2011 01:13AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Byrd November 21, 2011 10:00PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman November 21, 2011 12:00AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard November 21, 2011 12:48PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione November 21, 2011 05:06PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione September 14, 2011 03:05AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 14, 2011 08:41AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard December 04, 2011 11:57PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK December 05, 2011 11:52AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard December 05, 2011 12:49PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK December 05, 2011 10:16PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard December 06, 2011 12:22AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman December 06, 2011 04:06AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard December 06, 2011 03:00PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman December 06, 2011 11:41PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Lee Olsen December 07, 2011 10:00AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

David Lubman December 07, 2011 09:07PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Greg Reeder December 07, 2011 10:26PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Reece December 10, 2011 12:12PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard December 10, 2011 02:19AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Hermione December 10, 2011 05:00AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK December 06, 2011 11:29AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard December 06, 2011 12:09PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK December 07, 2011 08:53PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard December 08, 2011 01:00AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK December 08, 2011 10:32AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

bernard December 08, 2011 11:54AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK December 08, 2011 03:45PM

Moderator Note

Katherine Reece December 10, 2011 12:15PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg September 15, 2011 08:05AM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

WVK September 15, 2011 02:28PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Jammer September 13, 2011 01:36PM

Re: Archaeoacoustics: Hearing the past

Byrd October 30, 2011 11:18AM



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