Charlotte Masuda Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kenuchelover,
>
> It seems you only read my first post because you
> suggest that I read "The Book of the Hopi" by
> Frank Waters. See my post to Marduk, September 8,
> and to Stephanie, September 10. I'm tired of
> explaining my views as most everybody does not
> read what I say, and twists my words with
> preconceived notions of probably being a UFO
> nutcase, and antedeluvian catastrophist per se. We
> will see if what I wrote in my first post as you
> say.

To quote you EXACTLY from your first post:

"The Hopi tradition tells that"...... (going on into a big pile of BS that the Hopi do NOT tell happened, but that some New Age nutcases try to say they do).

"The Hopi tell that they"...... (AGAIN going into a large pile of BS that the Hopi do NOT tell).

So in your first post, WHICH I WAS RESPONDING TO, you are putting some dammfool New Agers offensive words in Hopi mouths.

Moving on to your defense of yourself:

Uh, you made no post to Marduk on Sept 8, but you did make one on Sept 9 in reply to his of the 8th, which is what I assume you meant. This post of yours can most logically be interpreted as saying you were sorry you'd mentioned aliens on account of the flak you caught over it.... but it's a stretch to try reading it as you saying you didn't believe any such alien/Hopi nonsense & were sorry you'd posted drivel. Despite this being a stretch, WAS this what you were trying to say by quoting it to me?

On your Sept 10 post to Stephanie, you essentially say you were quoting somebody whose veracity you have NO IDEA OF, and have no idea whom HE was quoting, and that even the person you were quoting had doubts about what he was saying.

Oh, and you say "None of the teachers or people I spoke to in Arizona said anything about spaceships".

None of which gives your post any reason to have been made, lessens the offensiveness of it, or adds to your credibility.

Nor explains WHY you DID say "flying saucers" & "aliens" & "alliance of 12 planets" & that the Kachinas "came from a distant planet on ships of magnetic properties."


> It's like the banner I saw the other day: "Going
> out for Business", and everybody said the store if
> "going out of Businees."
>
> For anybody who has read my stuff over the years,
> I can call "Hunterbear" to my help:
>
> "In our Gray Hole, (his house) the ghosts often
> dance in the junipers and sage, on the game
> trails, in the tributary canyons with the thick
> red maples, and on the high windy ridges - and the
> dance from within the very essence of our own iner
> being. They do this especially when the bright
> night moon shines down on the clean white snow
> that covers the valley and it's surroundings. Then
> it is as bright as da -- but in an always soft and
> mysterious and remembering way."
>
> And:
>
> "None of this , good medicine or bad, is hokum --
> nor is it psychological suggestion, Boiled down to
> the very basic essence, this means that certain
> people can, in thinking good thoughts, make things
> bloom and alive -- whereas others, via thought,
> can make things wither and die. The potential for
> ESP -- TK/PK, telepathy, prerecognition,
> clairvoyance etc -- may well exist in all humans
> (and animals as well.) Much "Western" thinking
> and narrow scientific methodology can frequently
> suppress (but not kill) this -- but tribal
> thinking encourages its conscious development and
> usage. And there are certain people, who for good
> or for ill, appear to have this much closer to the
> surface and more readily at hand."
>
> Ring a bell? I said all these things in so many
> words over the years, but when Hunterbear says it,
> it has credibility, when I say it, it is new age
> rubbish.

Nope, doesn't ring a bell.

And yes, when a Native American traditionalist says something ABOUT HIS OWN CULTURE, it has credibility...... while when an outsider says things about Native American culture or anybody elses's culture (other than their own) THAT THE ACTUAL MEMBERS DON'T SAY, let alone when they LIE & SAYS THE MEMBERS OF THAT CULTURE DID SAY IT, no it DOESN'T have any credibility.

Not that "John R. Salter, Jr" AKA "Hunter Gray" AKA "Hunterbear" is particularly traditionalist. Skimming his website, mention is made of his having a White mother & what he calls a "fullblooded" Indian (Micmac/Abenaki/Mohawk) father".... despite the elsewhere admission that his father had at least SOME White blood as well (Scottish is mentioned).

And he goes on to admit that his father (sole source of Hunter Gray's Native Heritage) came from a family that has been Christian for centuries (Catholics, Anglican, Congregationalist, even a Mason in the lineage!), & had been adopted as a young child by a White family intent on assimilating him into White society.

And THEN says "Our basic cultural perspective is Iroquoian -- strongly influenced by Navajo"...... and speaks of an AZTEC god, saying "He was with me as I grew up. Ancient brother, always close".

Yup.... sounds real traditionalist. (Not!) Neh, sorry, but he's a modern Pan-Indian political activist who picked up most of his Indian culture from folk of a hundred tribes he bumped up against, and from what he read.

He's Indian all right, but not traditionalist. And hardly the last word in truth.

> My thanks to Hunterbear for vindicating me,

Uh, you haven't established that he did.... ESPECIALLY in the context of the BS you claimed that the Hopi believe.

> and to borrow his words again, one can "in an
> at least reasonable discriminating and filtering
> sense" read my stuff, only, I used Hermes'
> "co-conspiring in thinking." It would be nice if
> most everybody didn't start with: I know where she
> is coming from, know already what she is going to
> say, not hearing a thing clearly, let alone
> considering my meaning.
>
> Charlotte

It's obvious what you are coming from.... you don't like your own culture much & are looking for an alternative. I DON'T have a problem with that. What I DO have a problem with is when rather than pick an authentic culture to adopt, you instead invent some fantasy New Age mishmash & then try to IMPOSE it on AN AUTHENTIC NATIVE AMERICAN SOCIETY in order to forge some validity for it.

Sorry, that doesn't work. Go ahead & invent all you want, I won't object (so long as you don't try to falsely claim you've got "proof", in which case I might well try asking you for cites)..... Just stop trying to lie about Native American history & culture, stop trying to use it to reinforce your credibility, stop pretending to yourself & others that Native Americans would agree with that nonsense.

I've spent much of the last week seeking a probably EXTINCT tribal corn variety, that if actually dead is that way BECAUSE Whites spent the better part of a century pressuring my tribe to abandon it's traditional varieties and adopt "improved" commercial corn belt dents, AND seems to have misplaced the only seed collections they ever made of this variety. Oh, and squeezing in a bit of time arranging a seed swap with a nice Abenaki lady (shades of Hunterbear's ancestors!) who is doing her best to dig up AUTHENTIC Northeastern tribal cultivars, particularly Abenaki or closely related, so that she can reintroduce them to tribal members trying to hold onto a fading culture.

So I'm sure you can understand why I might get a little peeved at your totally NON-AUTHENTIC claims re Hopi legends!

Wade Wofford
Kenuchelover.