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May 16, 2024, 5:36 pm UTC    
October 03, 2005 06:09PM
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I guess we will have to disagree. My main problem is that I do not view the emic accounts that you refer to has uncontaminated by emic Spanish and post hoc rationalizations. The simple fact in my opinion is that the view that the Mexica would have viewed the Spanish as "gods", despite long exposure to them before Alvardo's massacre in the Plaza, to say nothing of the large number of Talaxans, both soldiers and bearers who came with them, who would have been in contact with the inhabitants of Tenotichlan would not have given them information that would have lead some, at least, to conclude the Spanish for "gods".

I can imagine the following conversation between a Mexica and a Talaxan bearer.

Mexica, "Whats it like working for gods?". Talaxan bearer, "Gods!, Yeah Right!!"

As for the actual behavior of certain Mexica at the time of the conquest. How about the following interaction between Montazuma and Cortez, which happened before Cortez took Montazuma prisoner.

Quote

Our Captain said to Montezuma, through our interpreters, with something like a laugh: ‘Lord Montezuma, I cannot imagine how a prince as great and wise as your Majesty can have failed to realize that these idols of yours are not gods but things, the proper name for which is devils. But so that I may prove this to you, and make it clear to all your, papas, grant me one favour. Allow us to erect a cross here on the top of the tower, and let us divide off a part of this sanctuary where your Huichilobos and Tezcatlipoca stand, as a place where we can put an image of Our Lady’ — which image Montezuma had already seen — ‘and then you will see, by the fear that your idols have of her, how grievously they have deceived you.’
Montezuma, however, replied in some temper (and the two papas beside him showed real anger): ‘Lord Malinche, if I had known that you were going to utter these insults I should not have shown you my gods. We hold them to be very good. They give us health and rain and crops and weather, and all the victories we desire. So we are bound to worship them and sacrifice to them, and I beg you to say nothing more against them.’
On hearing this and seeing Montezuma’s fury, our Captain said no more on the subject but observed cheerfully: ‘It is time for your Majesty and ourselves to depart.’ Montezuma replied that this was so, but that he had to pray and offer certain sacrifices on account of the great tatacul — that is to say sin — which he had committed in allowing us to climb his great cue and being instrumental in letting us see his gods and in the dishonour we had done them by our abuse. Therefore before he left he must pray and worship.

From The Conquest of New Spain, Penguin Books, Bernal Diaz, 1963, pp. 237-238.

Montazuma is supposidly the one most enamoured with the idea of Cortez as Quetzalcoatl yet here we do not see him in awe of his "god", but instead rather effectively putting Cortez in his place. If Montazuma could "figure it out" I rather suspect others could also to say nothing of this knowledge "filtering down". Also before Alvarado's massacre there was for example, the incident at Almeria were Mexica 8 Spanards were killed, along with one horse. Apparently this incident involved several Mexica military leaders who Cortez after he seized Montazuma had burned alive. And Apparently Montazuma intrigued with Narvaez against Cortez. Also Montazuma advised Cortez before the uprising to leave. This doesn't exactly indicate that Montazuma thought Cortez and his men were "gods".

If you state that some of the Mexica thought the spanish were "gods", for a time that is reasonable, if you state that the overwhelming majority thought they were "gods" right up to the uprising, you've lost me. This goes so much against common sense and evidence regarding personal behavior of the Spanish with Mexica that it cannot be taken seriously without incredibly convincing evidence and contaiminated post-hoc rationlizations aren't it.

Pierre
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Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 27, 2005 03:44PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 27, 2005 05:53PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 27, 2005 06:01PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 27, 2005 06:26PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 27, 2005 07:36PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 08:52AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Pete Clarke September 28, 2005 09:06AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Warwick L Nixon September 28, 2005 09:21AM

excellant observation

Warwick L Nixon September 28, 2005 09:20AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 10:19AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Warwick L Nixon September 28, 2005 10:53AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 11:04AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Warwick L Nixon September 28, 2005 11:26AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

bernard September 28, 2005 11:54AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 12:24PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Warwick L Nixon September 28, 2005 12:26PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 12:38PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 12:41PM

for Anna

Warwick L Nixon September 28, 2005 12:57PM

Re: for Anna

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 01:00PM

Re: for Anna

Warwick L Nixon September 28, 2005 01:05PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 01:13PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Jon K September 29, 2005 11:03AM

for Mr Pyatt

Warwick L Nixon September 29, 2005 11:09AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 29, 2005 11:33AM

correction and ....cough..... mistake LOL

Jon K September 29, 2005 12:30PM

no Windmills in Mexico

Warwick L Nixon September 29, 2005 12:40PM

Re: correction and ....cough..... mistake LOL

Katherine Reece September 29, 2005 12:46PM

citations

Anthony September 29, 2005 01:05PM

Re: citations

Jon K September 29, 2005 01:09PM

Please

Warwick L Nixon September 29, 2005 01:11PM

Re: citations

Katherine Reece September 29, 2005 01:11PM

Re: correction and ....cough..... mistake LOL

Jon K October 01, 2005 12:35PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 12:12PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Warwick L Nixon September 28, 2005 12:16PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 12:39PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 12:20PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 12:40PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 12:43PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 01:12PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 05:12PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 05:50PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 06:14PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 06:33PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 06:35PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 06:49PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

bernard September 28, 2005 07:04PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 08:29PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 08:41PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 08:45PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 08:58PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

bernard September 28, 2005 09:08PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 09:20PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 09:22PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Marduk September 28, 2005 09:39PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 09:51PM

Score card

Hans September 28, 2005 11:18PM

Re: Score card

Katherine Reece September 28, 2005 11:24PM

Re: Score card

Hans September 29, 2005 03:19AM

sniff

Warwick L Nixon September 29, 2005 09:22AM

Re: sniff

Hans September 30, 2005 12:45AM

Re: sniff

Warwick L Nixon September 30, 2005 11:09AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Hermione September 29, 2005 03:20AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Warwick L Nixon September 29, 2005 09:28AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Warwick L Nixon September 29, 2005 09:38AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Stephen Tonkin September 30, 2005 12:23PM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Hermione September 29, 2005 06:31AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Pacal September 29, 2005 11:01AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Warwick L Nixon September 29, 2005 11:04AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Pacal September 29, 2005 10:34AM

Re: Marduk ... re Nasca

Anthony September 29, 2005 10:50AM

Clam's Eye View

Warwick L Nixon September 29, 2005 10:57AM

just a note

Jon K September 29, 2005 12:45PM

Re: just a note

bernard September 29, 2005 01:57PM

Re: just a note

Sam September 29, 2005 02:14PM

Re: just a note

bernard September 29, 2005 02:34PM

Re: just a note

Anthony September 29, 2005 03:56PM

Re: just a note

Pacal September 29, 2005 02:10PM

Re: just a note

bernard September 29, 2005 03:34PM

Re: just a note

Pacal September 30, 2005 02:53PM

Re: just a note

bernard September 30, 2005 03:57PM

Re: just a note

Pacal October 03, 2005 06:09PM

Re: just a note

Jon K October 05, 2005 12:55PM

Re: just a note

Pacal October 05, 2005 04:58PM



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