Simon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jim Lewandowski Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > > >
> > > > > In all these discussions it
> seems
> > to be
> > > you
> > > > that
> > > > > doesn't care about truth. If
> those
> > who
> > > have
> > > > > dedicated their lives to truth
> are
> > so
> > > busy
> > > > > covering it up, and you are
> not,
> > why is
> > > it
> > > > that
> > > > > you espouse ideas that are
> well
> > known to
> > > be
> > > > modern
> > > > > inventions.
> > > >
> > > > ***
> > > > What ideas have I espoused that
> aren't
> > true?
> > > >
> > >
> > > That Jesus had a wife, for a start. Do
> you
> > know
> > > what real historians who know that
> period of
> > > history think about that idea using
> primary,
> > > secondary, and tertiary sources of
> evidence ?
> >
> >
> > ***
> > Jesus the divine vs. Jesus the POSSIBLE
> historical
> > person are two different things. IOW, I'm
> not
> > saying the Jesus character (real flesh and
> blood)
> > had a wife or not or went to france or not.
> >
>
> In fact you are saying nothing because you know
> nothing.

***
Really?


There is a "POSSIBLE historical" version
> of everyone. You clearly have not studied history
> in any academic sense.

***
Enough to have found the common thread between monotheism and earlier near east religions.


And yet you criticise
> historians for their opinion.

***
Not following. I'm not criticizing ANYONE.


Have you heard
> about a far more recent historical figure like
> Bizmark ? There are many different opinions on
> how much he planned what he did and how much he
> reacted to what events came his way. But
> historians have debated so many of the nuances of
> it for ages that your commentary would be
> considered nonsense unless you read the existing
> literature. And, nazi's aside, very few books are
> written about bizmark that are full of nonsense
> rubbish. Even the fictional ones take care to
> distinguish the facts from the fiction in an
> epilogue.
>
> But with Jesus any old flim flam man can write a
> book

***
Maybe these authors are trying to fill the complete and utter void about any reliable NON-biblical writings. Let's list non-biblical sources for Jesus EXISTENCE as a human being.

1) ...................................

Is that clear enough?



and it becomes so popular with people like
> you,

***
I haven't READ the DaVinci Code.


even if its all based on pure ignorance of
> the actual understanding of history, just because
> of the importance he once had in our past. The
> past that saw the renaisance, as well as some dark
> times. It was your sort that supported the dark
> times,

***
Too funny. Those with BELIEFS have traditionally supported and ushered in dark times/ages.


and the real historian types that supported
> the renaisance. And I say that with a clear
> conscience.
>
> Do you know the etymology of that last word ?

***
Nope.


>
>
> >
> > > What they see is a man who defied
> conventions
> > of
> > > what a religious man should be.
> >
> > ***
> > You'd have to separate the Jesus biblical
> > character from the possible Jesus historical
> > character for me to follow.
> >
>
> Okay you silly, silly man. I'm going to invent a
> Jim Lewandowski that is what I may possibly think
> you may be.

***
I'm a REAL person. There is unambiguous historical evidence as to my existence. Not so with the DIVINE Jesus AS PORTRAYED in the bible. Not even Josephus could come clean.


I'm not going to rely on evidence at
> all. I'm going to tell you about a man I know,
> honest guvnor, nudge-nudge-wink-wink, who has told
> me that your idea of fun is cutting the feet off
> rabbits and having a good laugh at watching them
> limp around on stumps.
>
> Of course you need to seperate the Jim Lewandowski
> people know about from the one I've been told
> about. Of course I don't trust anything you or
> your friends say because I trust this man I know
> because what he says makes a lot more sense to me.
> And I don't need any evidence from him because I
> rekon thats the kind of thing you would laugh at.
>
> So basically you need to seperate an idea in my
> head I haven't really spent much effort
> investigating, from one you believe in.
>
>
>
> >
> > He had close
> > > friends that were women - quite possibly
> his
> > > closest had a history in prostitution.
> He
> > > welcomed them to such an extent that
> his
> > disciples
> > > found it uncomfortable. "What will
> people
> > say"
> > > and all that. Now in our tabloid
> society we
> > rekon
> > > that these sometimes far distant
> accounts of
> > the
> > > disciples concerns to suggest, well the
> > > appropriate way to express the root
> though,
> > "he
> > > must have been shagging her".
> > >
> > > Although I personally would not have a
> > fundamental
> > > problem if Jesus had had sex with Mary
> > Magdalene -
> > > the idea is simply not credible.
> >
> > ***
> > It's a moot issue to me.
>
> Then why go on about it ?
>
>
> >
> >
> > You have to
> > > spend some time trying to understand
> the
> > society
> > > of the time. His disciples would not
> have
> > ended
> > > up willingly going to cruel deaths just
> for
> > their
> > > refusal to reject someone as god, if he
> > defiled
> > > their very understanding of honesty,
> truth,
> > and
> > > belief.
> >
> > ***
> > It SAYS they did so. That doesn't mean it's
> so.
> > But, after viewing Dr. Bart Ehrmans (Chapel
> Hill,
> > NC) series The Birth of Christianity to
> > Constantine, he even plainly states that the
> > gospels disagree with each other.
>
>
> So do all acounts of pretty much everything. You
> clearly have no education in any way of evaluation
> of evidence.

***
Right. We're all not as smart as you.

So, because there are disagreements of accounts of EVERYTHING, if I supply 2 different accounts to an event that never happened, you'd say "aha. See, accounts differ about historical events". How very nice for you. Any reasonable person would argue: IF the bible IS the "word of god" having GLARING discrepancies about the life of a mythical character named Jesus doesn't do much for any proverbial "god" or even "Jesus". But, that's just me. YMMV.


>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > ***
> > > > It's obvious not all of Brown's
> novel
> > is
> > > > "factual". I don't understand the
> point
> > to
> > > the
> > > > above post contents.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > What is your point then ? If you
> realise the
> > book
> > > is all complete fiction, then say so,
> stop
> > > moaning, and admit that Dan Brown is
> > disingenous
> > > in what he claims, and in how has
> intended
> > the
> > > book to be taken.
> >
> > ***
> > Intent occurs BETWEEN ONE'S EARS. I may have
> the
> > intent to read a book and attribute to it
> things
> > NOT INTENDED by the author. That's MY
> problem.
>
> Indeed. But if you claim to want some idea of the
> reality as far as its understood by people better
> informed than you, then accept it graciously or
> contest it with reasoned arguments.

***
It is reasonable to me to think, as I read a FICTIONAL book, that not everything in it is fiction. If I am UNSURE as to any purported facts, I can look them up myself. See how easy? The people at last night's DVC reading group all thought the same thing. Crazy group.


>
>
> >
> >
> > If you think there are elements
> > > of truth in it, then stop saying "but
> its
> > fiction"
> > > like a moron, and say what you consider
> to be
> > true
> > > in it.
> >
> > ***
> > Only those things that can be independently
> > verified by people who would have nothing to
> lose
> > one way or the other can be considered
> "factual".
> >
>
>
> Which leaves nothing left in Dan Browns book that
> he espouses so much on his web site.
>
>
> > > >
> > > > ***
> > > > So, you're saying Mithra and Christ
> have
> > no
> > > > similarities?
> > >
> > > No
> >
> > ***
> > Wow. I can't say that.
> >
>
> Why not ? Of course there are some similarities.
> If you didn't think as much why did you suggest it
> ? You really are a strange person.

***
Of course there are similarities (for good reason). Both from a conceptual (human designed) and a minutiae standpoint.


>
>
> >
> > >
> > > > And, you're also saying there's no
> > > > circumstantial evidence to these
> > > similarities
> > > > (additional)?
> > >
> > >
> > > You are projecting things. I'm
> restricted
> > in
> > > being able to reply to you because of
> how
> > the
> > > board rules here make my opinions into
> > "personal
> > > beliefs". However, this person Jesus
> claimed
> > to
> > > be the word through which the universe
> was
> > > created, not just the earth but the
> whole
> > > universe. You can say all spiritual
> insights
> > are
> > > fantasy nonsense. Or you can say that
> some
> > are,
> > > but there are also a few that have
> various
> > levels
> > > of clarity in an indirect sight of
> something
> > > larger than they can conceive. Which do
> you
> > > subscibe to ?
> >
> > ***
> > I prefer the Gnostic take (IIRC, they never
> > whacked anyone who didn't believe as they
> did).
> >
>
> Do you believe in society having a legal system ?

***
Yes.


> Do you think murder is okay ?

***
You have to be clearer in the term (murder is a LEGAL term, homocide is a slightly better term). Euthanasia isn't "murder" but technically is homocide but a type of homocide that I have zero trouble with (it's a free-will discussion).


Do you think
> stealing is okay ?

***
Depends. If I'm in NO during the Katrina thing and my baby is starving to death, stealing is just fine.


>
> Your thoughts are so primitive and unaware of
> history I intend to to give up after this post. I
> hadn't quite realised how many fundamental issues
> of why society is as it is and why society was as
> it was would be completely missing from your
> understanding.

***
If I were a believer in a completely mythical character, would you then think my understanding is up to snuff? I choose the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


>
>
> >
> > >
> > > > And, you're also saying there was
> > > > never a such a thing as
> competition
> > between
> > > > religions?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yeah read those words into my mouth if
> you
> > like.
> >
> > ***
> > I'm not trying to. I'm saying religious
> > competition seems to have been a big thing
> for our
> > past ancestors and our CURRENT fellow
> humans.
> >
>
> Yes and thats a pity. You provide no answers and
> loads of nonsense. So you don't help any of these
> problems.

***
I'm not religious nor do I support any formal religion. Thus, I'm doing MY part to prevent religious competition.


>
>
> > > > >
> > > > > Get to the point Jim. The
> fact is
> > Dan
> > > Brown
> > > > > leaves many of his readers
> > thinking
> > > that's
> > > > what
> > > > > Opus Dei is all about.
> > > >
> > > > ***
> > > > So, he alone has the POWER to make
> > people
> > > think
> > > > what he wants them to? Certainly,
> > freedom
> > > of
> > > > speech in the U.S. (excluding
> libel,
> > slander,
> > > and
> > > > avenue) has gone TOO far.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > They said similar things in Weimar
> germany...
> >
> >
> > ***
> > And since there WERE people who DISAGREED
> with
> > Hitler, that implies that Hitler did not
> have
> > ABSOLUTE power. Are you saying it is your
> job to
> > step in to help people who believe X when
> you
> > don't think they "should"?
> >
>
> Where do you buy your opinions and conclusions
> from ? You deserve a refund!
>
> I'm all for freedom of speech. It was
> christianity that was confident enough to desire
> the ideal of all people being free to do such
> things.

***
Like the Gnostics (A Christian's best friend)? You need to crack some work of Elaine Pagels.


>
> What happened with Hitler is that he sold a
> desperate people all the types of lies that your
> sort are fond of spreading.

***
I don't lie. If you look at the history of mankind's worst moments, they all have one thing in common (props to Sam Harris - The End of Faith):

They ALL believed in something COMPLETELY PREPOSTEROUS. Period.



He took intelligent
> people and made most of them into scared idiots.

***
Fear is, IMHO, the single most powerful human motivator there is. Far more powerful than love AND hate combined. Gov'ts and religious excel in this area.



> There were many in Germany who knew full well the
> ignorance of those wishy washy "this may possibly
> somehow - unlikely though it is - be true" ->
> turned into "this is true". Like Dietrich
> Bonhoeffer. But all of your sort saw 'the bright
> light of what may be true if the jews hadn't
> messed everything up'

***
I'm not a blind believer. See Sam Harris paraphrase above.


>
> Its plain wrong. And it was you that started with
> the holocaust reference. And you who should
> realise that the holocaust was supported by huge
> elements that are now considered 'alternative
> history' - Dan Brown etc....

***
Last I checked, Dan Brown wasn't in political power to ENFORCE his "beliefs". You've completely missed the barn.


>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Every good historical
> > > > > novel I have read has a
> section
> > (usually
> > > at
> > > > the
> > > > > end) which makes an honest
> attempt
> > to
> > > > seperate the
> > > > > fact from the fiction. And
> they
> > usually
> > > even
> > > > say
> > > > > something about all errors
> being
> > their
> > > own
> > > > fault
> > > > > rather than the real
> historians
> > that
> > > advised
> > > > them.
> > > > > Dan Brown does none of that.
> Its
> > > difficult
> > > > to
> > > > > see any honest, dilligent or
> > sincere
> > > > intention on
> > > > > his part whatsoever.
> > > >
> > > > ***
> > > > We differ in opinion on this. I
> believe
> > his
> > > > illustrated edition would clarify
> this.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You are indeed a joke.
> >
> > ***
> > IIRC, the illustrated edition had a b/w photo
> of
> > Isis/Horus to show it mimicked as close as
> is
> > reasonably possible, the iconic image of Mary
> and
> > baby Jesus. That's a fact, Jack.
> >
>
> Yes and its up to you if you want to consider that
> the whole Jesus/Mary thing is an espousal of the
> Isis/Horus story. You could of course read things
> like Isaiah 53 and start to understand that the
> origins of these things goes right to the root of
> the universe.

***
I prefer Isaiah 45:7. LOL!



The actual reality of the root made
> flesh is what belief in jesus is about. If its
> all nonsense regurgitate beliefs to you - then why
> on earth are you interested in Dan Browns
> regurgitated shite ?

***
I have an affinity for religion of our ancestors. Doesn't mean I have to believe.

JL



You may as well live your
> life.
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We might throw
> > > > > > > in the *fact* that
> Opus
> > > > > > > Dei is a lay
> > organization
> > > which has
> > > > no
> > > > > > monks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ***
> > > > > > I thought it was a work
> of
> > > fiction?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It is - completely. And yet
> you
> > are
> > > > suggesting
> > > > > that aspects of it are true.
> What
> > is
> > > all
> > > > that
> > > > > about ?
> > > >
> > > > ***
> > > > DaVinci seems to have been a real
> > person.
> > >
> > >
> > > Ahh - well said Jim. No one here
> realised
> > that.
> > >
> > > > The
> > > > Louvre seems to be a real museum.
> The
> > > character
> > > > of Jesus was written about. Ditto
> Mary
> > M.
> > > OPus
> > > > Dei exists. Things like that.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Jokes are supposed to be humerous,
> aren't
> > they ?
> >
> > ***
> > The joke is in the eye of the beholder.
> >
> > I don't mean to upset you in any way, but you
> can
> > be if you choose so.
> >
>
> I will be annoyed. I'm restricted in what I can
> say here - but the way Dan Brown wrote his book
> has lead to people I consider friends having a
> warped idea of reality. And you could say thats
> just my opinion - but the VAST majority of
> historians, let alone over a billion catholics
> across the globe, would tend to agree that Dan
> Brown does far more to confuse his readers that
> generally start out looking for a bit of
> entertainment, than he does to enlighten them.
> And then he continues to support the mistaken
> impressions people have gained from his book.
> Even though it was copied from a supposedly
> factual book that has long been discredited.
>
> So sure - it annoys me.
>
> ----
>
>
> Simon
>
> InternalSpace
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at 11/21/05 02:52PM by
> Simon.




Shephard of Hermas - 2[79]:2 Now this rock was ancient, and had a gate hewn out of it; but the gate seemed to me to have been hewed out quite recently. And the gate glistened beyond the brightness of the sun, so that I marvelled at the brightness of the gate.