Anthony,



> > > No bearing on the discussion at hand.
> >
> >
> > It was you who suggested that Chris had
> > accidentally written Osiris when he meant
> Geb. I
> > think that a mistake like that should be
> > corrected, since it actually has bearing to
> the
> > discussion, the one you were suggesting!
>
>
> Including Geb does not mean it must therefore
> include Osiris. That's what I meant by it having
> no bearing on the discussion at hand. They're not
> Geb and Osiris are not conjoined twins, you
> know....


Then why not write what you mean, eh? It would save us a lot of zig zagging.




> > > Apparently not... that or it didn't
> exist in
> > prior
> > > to late Dynasty V.
> >
> >
> > Not existing and existing compared to
> changing on a
> > "whim" are two completely different things.
> I
> > said, that the Great Ennead didn't change
> > throughout the dynastic times, and I still
> say so.
> > Can you show me differenbtly?
> >
>
>
>
> When do you think the Ennead came into being?
> Which Ennead? The Great Ennead probably didn't
> show up until the late Fifth/early Sixth Dynasty.
> Some even say later.


Anthony, read what I write and try to remember what you wrote yourself!! You poske of changing the Great Ennead on a whim and I answered about changing the Great Ennead but now for some obscure reason you keep hammering about creating the Ennead. Why?

Still, I am very curious to know What exactly your evidence of the Freat Ennead not showing up untill Unas' PTs? Or should I understand the "probably" and the "some say" as being your own personal preference?






> Hang on.
>
> I was talking about Khentiamentu being included in
> the group of gods on a Dynasty III shrine that had
> SOME of the gods from the LATER "Great Ennead" of
> Iunu. I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding.


What you actually said was: The ennead is a fictitious, mythical creation, and as such, could be changed at the whim of a single king. In fact, it is far more likely that Khentiamentu was included in the ennead... not Osiris. Here: [www.hallofmaat.com]

This to me sounds like you suggesting Khentiamentiu replacing Osiris, since in the PTs Osiris is part of the GE and Khentiamentiu is not, hmmmm?


>
>
> > Now, either you
> > belive that the Great Ennead did exist before
> the
> > PTs or it didn't, which is it? Or do you plan
> to
> > change it according to your needs in each
> > posting?
>
>
> Of course not. I will clarify what I meant,
> though.
>
> It is likely that there were groups of deities
> that functioned as cohesive "units" within various
> mythologies before they were all fused into the
> Great Ennead. Look at the Ogdoad of Hermopolis,
> for example.
>
> Here's a quick synopsis of this "migration" of
> deities in that particular setup:
>
Quote:In Egyptian mythology, the Ogdoad were
> eight deities worshipped in Hermopolis. First it
> was a cult having Hathor and Ra; later changing to
> a cult where Hathor and Thoth were the main
> deities over a much larger number of deities; and
> even later, Ra was assimilated into Atum-Ra
> through a merger with Atum of the Ennead
> cosmogeny.
>
> The eight deities were arranged in four
> female-male pairs, the females were associated
> with snakes and the males were associated with
> frogs: Naunet and Nu, Amaunet and Amun, Kauket and
> Kuk, Huh and Hauhet.
>
>
> What's interesting is seeing the crossovers that
> come about between these groupings over the
> Fifth/sixth Dynasties:
>
Quote:Great Ennead (also called the Heliopolis
> Ennead) consisted of Atum, the first god, his
> children Shu and Tefnut, and their descendants
> Geb, Nut, Osiris, Isis, Set, and Nephthys.
>
> Interesting that they fused Atum and Re, isn't it?
> So much politics. So many changes. Amazing
> time.


Do you really accept wikipedia as source now?

As for the rest of this quoting spree, I don't really see the relevance. The PTs display the Heliopolitan theology and are very clear about who the divinities are, and those divinities do not change during the whole of the dynastic times (and that's long time). What does Hermopolis' Ogdoad adopting Atum and Re have to do with this? Or are you trying to underline some sort of continual change?


The questions that you failed to answer, but that I would be very intersted to get answeres to:



You wrote:
> > > Well, not quite, because the parts of
> the PTs
> > that
> > > include Osiris were all written in
> Dynasty
> > V.
> >

I asked:
> > What is your evidence about Osris being
> written
> > into The PTs during the 5th dynasty?


What is your evidence?



I also asked:
> > Which utterances does David suggest as being
> older
> > than the others?


Just curious to know if she agrees with the Egyptologists specialised in linguistics.




You wrote:
> > > The Ennead of Iunu was, in all
> likelihood,
> > unheard
> > > of before Dynasty V.


I asked:
> > What is suggesting this "likelihood"?

I asked you this elsewhere too!





Ritva