Ritva Kurittu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anthony,
>
>
>
> > > The living king was identified with Geb,
> not
> > > the deceased one.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > No bearing on the discussion at hand.
>
>
> It was you who suggested that Chris had
> accidentally written Osiris when he meant Geb. I
> think that a mistake like that should be
> corrected, since it actually has bearing to the
> discussion, the one you were suggesting!


Including Geb does not mean it must therefore include Osiris. That's what I meant by it having no bearing on the discussion at hand. They're not Geb and Osiris are not conjoined twins, you know....





>
>
>
> > > You should know that the Great Ennead
> of
> > Iunu
> > > remained the same throughout the
> dynatsic
> > times,
> >
> >
> > Apparently not... that or it didn't exist in
> prior
> > to late Dynasty V.
>
>
> Not existing and existing compared to changing on a
> "whim" are two completely different things. I
> said, that the Great Ennead didn't change
> throughout the dynastic times, and I still say so.
> Can you show me differenbtly?
>



When do you think the Ennead came into being? Which Ennead? The Great Ennead probably didn't show up until the late Fifth/early Sixth Dynasty. Some even say later.

The timeframe we are discussing here predates that, so we might as well be discussing the effects of Saturn V rockets on pyramid construction, for all its logical implications.




>
>
>
> > > and no "whims of the king" could change
> > that.
> >
> >
> > Obviously it did. How else was it created in
> the
> > first place?
>
>
> Again, I was not talking about "creating" but
> changing, because you suggested that Khentiamentiu
> may have been in the Great Ennead before Osiris
> took his place in the PTs!!!


Hang on.

I was talking about Khentiamentu being included in the group of gods on a Dynasty III shrine that had SOME of the gods from the LATER "Great Ennead" of Iunu. I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding.


> Now, either you
> belive that the Great Ennead did exist before the
> PTs or it didn't, which is it? Or do you plan to
> change it according to your needs in each
> posting?


Of course not. I will clarify what I meant, though.

It is likely that there were groups of deities that functioned as cohesive "units" within various mythologies before they were all fused into the Great Ennead. Look at the Ogdoad of Hermopolis, for example.

Here's a quick synopsis of this "migration" of deities in that particular setup:

Quote

In Egyptian mythology, the Ogdoad were eight deities worshipped in Hermopolis. First it was a cult having Hathor and Ra; later changing to a cult where Hathor and Thoth were the main deities over a much larger number of deities; and even later, Ra was assimilated into Atum-Ra through a merger with Atum of the Ennead cosmogeny.

The eight deities were arranged in four female-male pairs, the females were associated with snakes and the males were associated with frogs: Naunet and Nu, Amaunet and Amun, Kauket and Kuk, Huh and Hauhet. [en.wikipedia.org]

What's interesting is seeing the crossovers that come about between these groupings over the Fifth/sixth Dynasties:

Quote

Great Ennead (also called the Heliopolis Ennead) consisted of Atum, the first god, his children Shu and Tefnut, and their descendants Geb, Nut, Osiris, Isis, Set, and Nephthys. [en.wikipedia.org]

Interesting that they fused Atum and Re, isn't it? So much politics. So many changes. Amazing time.






>
> Are you quite seriously suggesting that the
> creation of the Great Ennead happended due to a
> "whim" of one king? Yes or no?
>
>
> > > Had
> > > Khentiamentiu been included in that
> Ennead,
> > then
> > > we would know about it in the PTs,
> where he
> > is
> > > present,
> >
> > Not if he had been replaced by Osiris in
> that
> > role. Then we would see exactly what we see.
>
> > Well, not quite, because the parts of the PTs
> that
> > include Osiris were all written in Dynasty
> V.
>
> He replaced Osiris where?
>
> What is your evidence about Osris being written
> into The PTs during the 5th dynasty?
>
>
>
>
> > > wouldn't we. But no, he is not
> included
> > > in it, is he? Because with
> Khentiamentiu
> > present,
> > > the PTs still tell us that the Great
> Ennead
> > of
> > > Iunu is: Atum, Shu, Tefnut, Osiris,
> Horus,
> > Seth,
> > > Isis and Nephthys.
> >
> > The PTs are a melding of old and new texts.
> The
> > parts with Osiris are new... clearly. The
> parts
> > with Khentiementu are old... just as clearly.
>
>
>
> Again, what is your evidence of Osiris being
> "new"? The fact that there is no written evidence
> of him before that time? So you don't agree with
> the Egyptologists (Griffith included) who estimate
> the beliefs concerning Osiris being much older?
> Why not?
>
>
>
>
> It
> > is very easy to not get the two confused
> when
> > transcribing new texts. Rosalie David has
> an
> > excellent summation of this time frame
> (Dynasty 5)
> > and how there was a great "fusion" of old and
> new
> > beliefs that ended up being cross-represented
> in
> > the corpus we call "The Pyramid Texts".
>
>
> Nobody is denying that there is amic of rachaic,
> old and rather new in the PTs. However, if a bulk
> of those utterances had been written during the
> 5th dynasty, then surely we'd see more of Re in
> those, don't you think. If not whay not?
>
>
> Which utterances does David suggest as being older
> than the others?
>
>
>
> >
> > The Ennead of Iunu was, in all likelihood,
> unheard
> > of before Dynasty V.
>
>
>
> What is suggesting this "likelihood"?
>
>
>
> >
> > > Why aren't you protesting about Isis
> turning
> > up in
> > > the Ennead, after all, she makes her
> first
> > written
> > > appearance in the Pts also, hmmm?
> > >
> >
> >
> > Because I was talking about Osiris. I don't
> have
> > as much background info on Isis, either.
> Don't
> > really care that much, since neither of them
> were
> > of the least bit importance to the Dynasty
> IV
> > pyramid builders.
>
>
> How about sAH and spd.t? Are they of no importance
> also? They are both mentioned with Nephthys (ring
> a bell?) in the utterance estimated to be one of
> the oldest in the PTs (216). I'd think, that since
> this utterance obviosuly was written before the
> 4th dynasty, and sAH did become Osiris and spd.t
> Isis, you'd want to take a look at this.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > I agree. So much wor the great cult of
> Ra
> > before
> > > the 5th dyansty!
>
> > Iunu is not the same as the cult of Re.
> You're
> > throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
>
>
> However, in the records the mentiones of Iunu and
> Re start at the same time: 5th dynasty.
>
>
>
>
> In my
> > attempted research of this timeframe, I have
> > really tried to differentiate between what is
> fact
> > and what is interpretation of disparate
> evidence,
> > sometimes based on erroneous assumptions.
> Iunu is
> > one of those things that has been
> surprisingly
> > represented in most texts on the subject.
>
>
> I agree. Completely. And I must say, that I am
> veryy disappointed in many serious Egyptologists
> to still today write about the great solar city of
> Iunu during the 4th dynasty (as in obelisks and
> pyramids)!
>
>
> > However, the fact that Iunu may not have
> existed
> > prior to Dynasty V is completely irrelevant,
> since
> > we know the cult of Re most certainly
> existed.
>
> > DjedefRE is irrefutable.
>
> I don't really agree with this. I think Djedefre
> adopting the title is due to a change in the
> kingship itself. As I wrote above, the evidence
> says the cult begun only during the 5th dynasty.
>
>
>
> On the other hand, why would they move it? I
> > don't
> > > find this very plausible, actually.
> >
> >
> >
> > They would move it to help capture the
> legitimacy
> > of it and grant it to the new location. I
> guess
> > the question should be asked, why wouldn't
> they?
>
>
> Are there any other examples of shrines having
> been moved to other locations and temples?
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> Ritva




Anthony

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think.