Doug M Wrote:
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> Complaints about theosophists and whatever axes
> they have to grind with Egyptology are not my
> concern.
>
> The reference to the pyramid texts is relevant
> because such images of Djehuti are part of the
> tradition of symbolism and kingship that
> originated in the Old Kingdom. Specifically, the
> symbolism of the snakes wearing crowns as signs of
> royal and magical power are relevant and the
> pyramid texts reflects the Egyptian belief on the
> subject.

Which changes over the millennia as symbols in iconography. Just as not all snakes are Wadjet, neither are all symbols of snakes emblems of magical events: sometimes they are political symbols. I am talking about how these symbols are used on a specific scene in the Temple of Seti I at Abydos. I am not talking about how these symbols were used in the Old Kingdom.

If you think they are used the exact same way throughout the millennia of Egyptianhistory, you will have to give me a direct citation on this, because quite honestly, there were many changes in Egyptian religious and political beliefs over the years, particularly after the Amarna period, which reflected the more political outlook of controlling an empire, as I can show in any number of publications.

> Whether the scepter touches the mouth of the
> pharoah or not or whether they convey power to the
> pharoah in this particular scene or not is not my
> issue. The issue is whether the scepters carried
> by Djehuti and the snakes around them are symbols
> of the "magic" power of state. Crowns always
> symbolize kingship and are inherently political.

That is, in fact, exactly what I said: the scene is political, but not a "magical" act. The snakes, with red and white crowns surmount their papyrus and lotus stalks as counterparts - all are symbolic of the Lower and Upper land of Egypt. The staff and snakes in this scene and in the case of another scene Greg noted, are the lands of Egypt being conveyed to the king as in the form of a coronation ceremony.

But the scene at Abydos in both cases is political, not a form of 'magical' event. It is religious as well, to be sure, but it is not was Greg have noted, quoting Ritner on what 'magic' is, "...an activity which seeks to obtain its goal by methods outside the simple laws of cause and effect."

> No offense, but on these subtle symbolic issues,
> the only references I find meaningful are primary
> texts and images from Egypt proper. All those I
> have seen so far, indicate that these serpents
> wearing the crown of Upper and Lower Egypt
> respectively were symbols of magical and kingly
> power and that the meanings did not change from
> the pyramid text passage I cited to the one image
> in Seti's temple.

I have given direct translation from the primary texts at Abydos which clearly indicates their politcal imagery as the focus of the scene. Perhaps you should read that rather than referring me to Roscicrucian websites.

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Doctoral Programme in Oriental Studies [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom