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May 8, 2024, 7:56 am UTC    
August 17, 2007 01:22AM
Doug,

It seems to me that we get into deep and tangled discussions by mixing up terms. You discuss priests/magicians as if they were the same thing and then put in animism into the mix and shake to get shamanism. The dispute about “intellectualism” is somewhat misleading and mostly about semantics rather than substance. The need to “explain” natural phenomena and to try to control them and diminish uncertainty is probably the basis for the origin of religion. The essence of religion is belief, so that no one is stating that Egyptian priests did not ‘believe”. However, as societies evolve and get to be states you get, full-time practioners and they begin to develop a more coherent, and yes “intellectual” world view. Think of the amount of intellectual thought of an Aquinas, who was also a believer. It is not either/ or.

First, let’s clear the evidential bush. We have no direct evidence that “Egyptian priests were just following and expanding the beliefs and practices of the precursor settlers of the Nile Valley [my paraphrase]” If there is, all of us would appreciate a reference we can check. Thus, what we can do is to go by analogy. The settlers that returned to the Nile Valley after the dessication of the Sahara in the late Holocene were not hunter gatherers. The Sahara dwellers had become cattle herders about 6000 BC and abandoned the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. If you read the literature on shamanism (or the paper I quoted by Winkelman), the characteristic religion associated with a hunter/gatherer lifestyle is shamanism. What has happened, except in the New World, is that when societies abandon this lifestyle for pastoralism and/or agriculture they develop other religious practices.

Although all groups with shamanism are also animistic, not all animistic groups are shamanistic.

Malinowski proposed a scheme that I have found very useful in a heuristic manner. Even though I’ll describe them separately, in real life societies use both, for example. Egyptian medicine used both empirically derived remedies as well as magical treatments. Both science and magic are attempts to control the world, but they differ in that science only deals with the natural world and natural causes while magic recognizes both natural and supernatural causes. Religion resembles magic in recognizing the existence of the supernatural, and differs from both magic and science in that the role of humans is that of suppliants rather than actors. The level of complexity of a society will also influence the mix. Smaller, less complex, groups will tend to have more magical approaches and mediums, sorcerers/magicians as well as herbalists. As the society gets more complex you begin to have more priests and organized religion with a hierarchy.

Would it be useful to look Egyptian religion with these points in mind?
Bernard
Subject Author Posted

shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 10, 2007 08:55PM

Tekenu and Shamanism

Greg Reeder August 10, 2007 10:43PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 11, 2007 06:18AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 11, 2007 11:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 11, 2007 04:12PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 11, 2007 03:50PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 11, 2007 05:43PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 12, 2007 09:04AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 12, 2007 10:48AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 13, 2007 06:00PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 13, 2007 11:47PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 11, 2007 05:16PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ken B August 11, 2007 06:19PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter August 12, 2007 08:17AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 12, 2007 10:43AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 08, 2007 12:29PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 08, 2007 01:07PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 08, 2007 03:40PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 08, 2007 03:52PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 09, 2007 04:01PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 09, 2007 07:37PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 10, 2007 03:48AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 10, 2007 11:55AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 11, 2007 06:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 13, 2007 08:05PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 13, 2007 11:49PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 14, 2007 06:32PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 14, 2007 07:22PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 14, 2007 09:01PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 14, 2007 09:36PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 14, 2007 09:51PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 15, 2007 12:30AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 15, 2007 07:50AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 16, 2007 05:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 16, 2007 08:10AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 08:17AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 16, 2007 11:46AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 07:39PM

Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 16, 2007 08:05PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 08:24PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 01:22AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 03:39AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 07:33AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 07:50AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 08:27AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 08:44AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 09:01AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 09:06AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 09:18AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 10:13AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 17, 2007 09:48AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 09:53AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 08:50AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 10:18AM

Citations?

Anthony August 17, 2007 10:59AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 11:14AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 02:19PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 02:46PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Tommi Huhtamaki August 17, 2007 03:01PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 04:05PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 03:48PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 04:29PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 04:44PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 06:00PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 06:43PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 07:12PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 07:54PM

Request ...

Hermione August 18, 2007 03:20AM

Re: Request ...

Doug M August 18, 2007 06:43AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 18, 2007 06:46AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 18, 2007 06:55AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 07:14PM

Sympathetic Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 20, 2007 12:00PM

Re: Sympathetic Magic in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 12:15PM

Intellectual Magic

Anthony August 20, 2007 01:09PM

Further note

Anthony August 20, 2007 01:14PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

bernard August 20, 2007 01:46PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

Anthony August 20, 2007 07:43PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

cladking August 20, 2007 04:30PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

Byrd August 20, 2007 06:51PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

cladking August 20, 2007 07:55PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

Byrd August 22, 2007 07:24PM

Re: Sympathetic Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 21, 2007 05:02AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 07:12PM

Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 06:14PM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 06:26PM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 07:07PM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 18, 2007 07:01AM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Hermione August 18, 2007 07:41AM

**Sub-thread closed**

Hermione August 18, 2007 07:35AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 11:57AM

Well said, Bernard

Anthony August 17, 2007 02:16PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 16, 2007 08:59AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 16, 2007 12:42PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 16, 2007 01:47PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 08:39PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 17, 2007 05:51AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 06:15AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 17, 2007 04:49AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 06:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 17, 2007 12:58PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 01:43AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 05:26AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 17, 2007 10:20AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 18, 2007 04:09AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 10:58AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 18, 2007 11:16AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 11:58AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 18, 2007 12:15PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 12:53PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 18, 2007 01:57PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 18, 2007 08:16PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 19, 2007 05:58AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 19, 2007 03:14PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 19, 2007 07:44PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 12:14AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 20, 2007 06:01AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 20, 2007 08:25AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 21, 2007 04:45AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 09:54AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 21, 2007 04:43AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 20, 2007 08:42AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 20, 2007 07:39PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 19, 2007 09:13PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 05:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 10:16AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 20, 2007 09:37AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 10:13AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 11:11AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 11:18AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 11:50AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 12:18PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 01:17PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 20, 2007 07:08PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 21, 2007 11:45AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 14, 2007 10:21PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 14, 2007 10:48PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 15, 2007 01:25AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 15, 2007 01:38AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 15, 2007 09:50AM



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