Katherine Griffis-Greenberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doug M Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Heka as an intellectual "attribute" is only
> > focusing on the later manifestation of the
> > concept. Heka as a magical attribute of
> "the
> > word" is certainly more older and traces back
> to
> > priest/magicians who were/are an important
> part of
> > many African animist traditions.
>
> ....and your citation would be?

Citation for what?

1) Priests along the Nile Valley and in Africa prior and leading to ancient Egypt?
2) Words and spells in the Nile Valley prior to the existence of Heka as a discrete deity?
3) Animism in Africa and along the Nile Valley up to and during dynastic Egypt?
4) The definition of animism?

Let me know and I will dig up what I can. But this isn't about how ancient animism is in the Nile Valley or priests or spells or religious cults in Africa in general. It is about how these elements could be considered shamanistic. What you are talking about is a whole separate thread unto itself (history of magic as part of animist traditions in Africa prior to the formation of the Egyptian state.)

>
> > All of these
> > priest/magicians receive years of training
> in
> > knowing how to perform their rituals, which
> > include using "words of power". That is not
> an
> > "intellectual" attribute, it is inherent in
> the
> > practice of rituals and activities associated
> with
> > "magical" power. This is about belief not
> > intellect and the power of the word partly
> comes
> > from the power of belief. Unless you believe
> in
> > magic, there is nothing about Heka that can
> be
> > construed as "intellectual", in the sense
> that
> > such words will cause something "magical" to
> > happen. The priest/magicians of Egyptian
> temples
> > were the ones who would have learned these
> "words
> > of power" and by using them as part of the
> rituals
> > of Egypt, invoked the "magic" or power of
> the
> > gods. None of that represents any sort of
> > "intellectual" tradition.
>
> ....and your citation would be?

Again for what?

Are you saying that invoking the power of a sky god is some sort of intellectual tradition?
Please define intellectual. Then define magic. Then define belief system. The three are totally different things. Lastly look up animism. Then define ka.

Quote


(Webster's Unabridged English Dictionary)

Intellect:

1. The power or faculty of the mind by which one knows or understands, as distinguished from that by which one feels and that by which one wills; the understanding; the faculty of thinking and acquiring knowledge.

Magic:

2. The art of producing a desired effect or result through the use o incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural or the forces of nature.

Belief:
2. Confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof.

Animism:
1. The belief that natural objects, natural phenomena and the universe itself possesses souls.

Ka:
A spiritual entity, an aspect of the individual, believed to live withing the body during life and to survive it after death.

Magic is not based on intellect it is based on belief. Intellect cannot grasp something incomprehensible, such as a spirit or a god. Incantations in the service of magic are not a reflection of intellect, they are a reflection of belief. The belief in spirits, natural or otherwise is an ancient aspect of animism. The belief that certain people could control these spirits or interact with the energies (spirits) of nature through spells and incantations are likewise an ancient aspect of animistic belief. They have nothing to do with intellect and are not something that came about due to some special aspect of Egyptian thought. What was special about Egypt was writing, among other things and the fact that they preserved so much of their religious thought through writing in stone and on papyrus.
Prior to that such traditions of magic and ritual were the transmitted orally, which means they were not preserved in such a way for them to be as available to us today as those from ancient Egypt.

Lastly, if ka can be loosely translated as "soul" then by definition Egyptian religion was animist. The neters or "aspects of nature" all had souls as well as "divine" attributes: lionesses, ibises, cows, cats, dogs, crocodiles... and so on. Of course souls come from god, meaning god provides the essence of all nature, the life force, which is what is meant when the "gods" have a ka, like the Sun god Ra.

Good example: "Eternal like the Souls of Re", or in other words, Menkaure.




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2007 07:58PM by Doug M.