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May 8, 2024, 2:42 pm UTC    
August 11, 2007 03:50PM
bernard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are there any shamanic elements in Egyptian
> religion, i.e the existence of an underworld and
> upperworld and an axis mundi that communicated
> between the 3 levels; the existence of several
> souls- some of which could leave the body and
> return; the existence of altered states of
> conciousness induced by hallucinogens, drumming
> ,exaustion, etc. persons who could transform into
> animal- companions.?

In the simple answer, probably not.

In the more complex answer, possibly.

(Doesn't everybody just hate when I do that?) Curtsy

Let me explain why I say this:

Some years ago, it as proposed in one of my Egyptian archaeology classes that Bolshakov's concept (1997) of the /kA/ was a way of viewing the dead from one side (the living), which in turn was a form of "shamanic trance" by which the living could communicate with the dead. The /kA/ is considered an entity which is earthbound after death, but lives in a liminal plane between this life and the afterlife. Under ancient Egyptian beliefs, it communicates with its more immortal counterpart, the /bA/, and it links the /bA/ with the deceased body, /saH/ as a mnemonic.

The /kA/ exists within the body at birth (it is incorporated into the body of Egyptian males, while females are thought to possess a counterpart to the /kA/ called the /Hmwst/ (Troy 1986: 18-19)), it lives as a form of "personality" during life, acting as an internal guide to life, and then continues on as a "life force" of an individual after death, pulling together the eternal soul /bA/ with the body.

The /kA/lives separately as an entity beyond death, and must be fed (Gordon 1996); it communicates and/or interferes with the living (often in dreams, and is the being to whom the living address letters to the dead (Szpakowska 2003), and for the living, it is the individual existing in another form, which the living often claim to see, usually as ghosts (Bolshakov 1997).

So, in one sense, you do have the concept of "multiple souls", which travel (both /bA/ and /kA/) in the sense of that which could leave the body and return, and with the /kA/, an an axis mundi that communicated between the 3 levels.

What we're not as clear about is the concept of how much a living person could incite and communicate with these beings in a shamanistic trance state. Much has been written about the effects of lotus as a possible hallucinogen, but present studies seem to indicate that lotus may have only conveyed only bioflavinoid effects of well-being and relaxation to its consumers, rather than induce trance (Bertol, et al., 2004).

Greg's work on the tekenu is the best English article of which I am aware on the topic of a specific person who appears to send off his own/kA/ out of a living body to communicate with beings in the afterlife. As I recall, no known drug is used to induce the proposed trance.

That said, the issue of shamanism in ancient Egypt does have its proponents - in the popular press, Jeremy Naydler proposes that incidents of shamanism are replete throughout the Pyramid Texts, as well as other instances.

Meanwhile in more professional Egyptological circles, two German Egyptologists have proposed a shamanic quality in ancient Egyptian religion in these articles:

Helck, W. 1984. Schamane und Zauberer. In I. d'Égyptologie, Ed., Mélanges Adolphe Gutbub: 103-108. Montpellier: Publication de la Recherche - Université de Montpellier.

Neuriter, S. 2005. Schamanismus in Alten Ägypten. SAK 33: 281-330.

Other possible references to shamanic traditions in ancient Egypt are listed below (in Reference).

There is also a possible reference to a type of shamanic person in ancient Egyptian society, which can be found in this article:

Borghouts, J. F. 1982. Divine Intervention in Ancient Egypt and Its Manifestation. In R. J. Demarée and J. J. Janssen, Eds., Gleanings from Deir el-Medîna: 1-70. Leiden: Nederlands Institute voor het Nabije Oosten.

See §8 of this article, which refers to the /tA rx.t/, which literally means "she who knows." This is the "wise woman" of Deir el Medina, who intercedes in problems amongst the villagers, usually by interacting with "manifestations of a god" to set their problems aright. References to the /tA rx.t/ can be found on Deir el Medina ostraca, mainly Ostraca Cairo (CG 25674) and Ostraca Gardiner 149 (Borghouts 1982: 24-25).

Were these the only references to a /tA rx.t/, I would tend to discount them more into the realm of the "village busybody" who gives advice to strangers by using her own good sense and then claim interaction with this or that god as a means of "justifying" her advice. But, as Borghouts notes, there is more to this /tA rx.t/ than these two instances at Deir el-Medina, citing an unpublished papyrus, pBibliothèque National (279, Carton B ), from the time of Amenhotep I.

This papyrus talks of an instance where certain advice was given to the king that X god would turn his back on him if Z action were taken, as on all great rulers, "just as the /rx.t/ had said..."(Borghouts 1982: 25). So, whatever the /tA rx.t/ was in Egyptian society, she was more than simply a "village busybody," as she appears to have advised kings as well as villagers.

Lyn Meskell (1999: 180) proposed that an individual (female) who served as a /tA rx.t/ may have been found in the archaeological record, referring to a female burial which contained items which appeared to be of a shamanistic nature (stones, gazelle dung, stringed shells, scented earth kept in a bag which was intricately knotted, etc. Meskell noted that the knotting of the bag was particularly significant, as it was meant to either contain or direct magical forces (citing Borghouts 1994:124).

> This may be the wrong place to ask, but do other
> African religions have these attributes. I know
> that the Khoisan and the hunter-gatherers who did
> the rock art in the Saharan and South Africa did
> have shamanic religions, but do Africans who are
> pastoralists and/or farmers have them?

In the classic sense of shamanism (endurance rituals in which a person could transform into animal-companions), I don't feel that ancient Egyptian society probably had such a person. In the sense that it had shamanistic "seers" who could communicate with the dead, or with spirits and gods, very likely.

Hence my confusing answer at the outset. grinning smiley

Reference:

Bertol, E., V. Fineschi, et al. 2004. Nymphaea cults in ancient Egypt and the New World: A lesson in empirical pharmacology. Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine 97: 84-85.

Bolshakov, A. O. 1997. Man and His Double in Egyptian Ideology of the Old Kingdom. Ägypten und Altes Testament 37. M. Görg. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz.

Borghouts, J. F. 1994. Magical Practices among the Villagers. In L. H. Lesko, ed., Pharaoh's Workers: The Villagers of Deir el-Medina: 119-130.

Gordon, A. A. 1996. The kA as an Animating Force. JARCE 33: 31-35.

Meskell, L. 1999. Archaeologies of Social Life: Age, Sex, Class, et cetera in Ancient Egypt. Social Archaeology. I. Hodder. Cambridge: Blackwell Publishers.

Kaplony, P. 1984. Leben «Sub Specie Aeternatis» als Xri-kA. In I. d'Égyptologie, Ed., Mélanges Adolphe Gutbub: 115-123. Montpellier: Publication de la Recherche - Université de Montpellier. (analysis of a religious title which may have shamanistic significance)

Ritner, R. K. 1993. The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice. Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization (SAOC) 54. T. A. Holland and R. M. Schoen. Chicago: Oriental Institute. (Chapter on shamanism)

Szpakowska, K. 2003. Behind Closed Eyes: Dreams and Nightmares in Ancient Egypt. CPW Studies in Egyptology. Swansea: Classical Press of Wales.

Troy, L. 1986. Patterns of Queenship: in ancient Egyptian myth and history. BOREAS 14. Uppsala: ACTA Universitatis Upsaliensis.

HTH.

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Doctoral Programme in Oriental Studies [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom





Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2007 04:03PM by Katherine Griffis-Greenberg.
Subject Author Posted

shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 10, 2007 08:55PM

Tekenu and Shamanism

Greg Reeder August 10, 2007 10:43PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 11, 2007 06:18AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 11, 2007 11:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 11, 2007 04:12PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 11, 2007 03:50PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 11, 2007 05:43PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 12, 2007 09:04AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 12, 2007 10:48AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 13, 2007 06:00PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 13, 2007 11:47PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 11, 2007 05:16PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ken B August 11, 2007 06:19PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter August 12, 2007 08:17AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 12, 2007 10:43AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 08, 2007 12:29PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 08, 2007 01:07PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 08, 2007 03:40PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 08, 2007 03:52PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 09, 2007 04:01PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 09, 2007 07:37PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 10, 2007 03:48AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 10, 2007 11:55AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 11, 2007 06:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 13, 2007 08:05PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 13, 2007 11:49PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 14, 2007 06:32PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 14, 2007 07:22PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 14, 2007 09:01PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 14, 2007 09:36PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 14, 2007 09:51PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 15, 2007 12:30AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 15, 2007 07:50AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 16, 2007 05:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 16, 2007 08:10AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 08:17AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 16, 2007 11:46AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 07:39PM

Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 16, 2007 08:05PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 08:24PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 01:22AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 03:39AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 07:33AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 07:50AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 08:27AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 08:44AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 09:01AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 09:06AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 09:18AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 10:13AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 17, 2007 09:48AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 09:53AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 08:50AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 10:18AM

Citations?

Anthony August 17, 2007 10:59AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 11:14AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 02:19PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 02:46PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Tommi Huhtamaki August 17, 2007 03:01PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 04:05PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 03:48PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 04:29PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 04:44PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 06:00PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 06:43PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 07:12PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 07:54PM

Request ...

Hermione August 18, 2007 03:20AM

Re: Request ...

Doug M August 18, 2007 06:43AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 18, 2007 06:46AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 18, 2007 06:55AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 07:14PM

Sympathetic Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 20, 2007 12:00PM

Re: Sympathetic Magic in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 12:15PM

Intellectual Magic

Anthony August 20, 2007 01:09PM

Further note

Anthony August 20, 2007 01:14PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

bernard August 20, 2007 01:46PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

Anthony August 20, 2007 07:43PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

cladking August 20, 2007 04:30PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

Byrd August 20, 2007 06:51PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

cladking August 20, 2007 07:55PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

Byrd August 22, 2007 07:24PM

Re: Sympathetic Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 21, 2007 05:02AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 07:12PM

Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 06:14PM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 06:26PM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 07:07PM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 18, 2007 07:01AM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Hermione August 18, 2007 07:41AM

**Sub-thread closed**

Hermione August 18, 2007 07:35AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 11:57AM

Well said, Bernard

Anthony August 17, 2007 02:16PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 16, 2007 08:59AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 16, 2007 12:42PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 16, 2007 01:47PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 08:39PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 17, 2007 05:51AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 06:15AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 17, 2007 04:49AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 06:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 17, 2007 12:58PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 01:43AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 05:26AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 17, 2007 10:20AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 18, 2007 04:09AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 10:58AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 18, 2007 11:16AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 11:58AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 18, 2007 12:15PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 12:53PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 18, 2007 01:57PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 18, 2007 08:16PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 19, 2007 05:58AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 19, 2007 03:14PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 19, 2007 07:44PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 12:14AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 20, 2007 06:01AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 20, 2007 08:25AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 21, 2007 04:45AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 09:54AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 21, 2007 04:43AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 20, 2007 08:42AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 20, 2007 07:39PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 19, 2007 09:13PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 05:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 10:16AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 20, 2007 09:37AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 10:13AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 11:11AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 11:18AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 11:50AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 12:18PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 01:17PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 20, 2007 07:08PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 21, 2007 11:45AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 14, 2007 10:21PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 14, 2007 10:48PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 15, 2007 01:25AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 15, 2007 01:38AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 15, 2007 09:50AM



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