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May 8, 2024, 9:01 pm UTC    
August 11, 2007 11:28AM
Hi Bernard,



What a wonderful question! grinning smiley

While Eliade (the name to mention in this kind of a topic, I presume smiling smiley) was right, as fas as ancient Egypt is concerned, when saying that traditional societies placed their known world at the center of everything, because from their perspective their known world is the realm where any recognisable order, as opposed to chaos, is maintained. And that from this it naturally follows that it must be the realm where the sacred and divine manifests itself, while foreign regions are outside the order established by the divine force itself. Actually he couldn't have been more right. This is exactly how the ancient Egyptians thought.

However, the sacred manifesting itself in Egypt, and Egypt only, didn't have the effect of the Egyptians having a direct link to the sacred by means of shamans, as in many other cultures, or all of them as Eliade claims, suggesting shamanism to be an universal phenomenon.
Stangely enough, shamanism seems to be completely absent in the ancient Egyptian culture.

There are no evidenced rites, where intoxication, trance or ecstacy would be the key factor in communicating with the divine. Actually, it doesn't seem to be included at all. While the Greeks may have given an impression of the contrary by translating Hm-nTr (servant of the god) as "prophet", this translation is directly linked to the later periods' oracles, where the priests were "translators" of the divine will. These "oracles", however, could mostly only answer by "yes" or "no" and the priests were not in an altered state of mind, nor did they directly communicate with the divine, but simply interpreted the divine will, which expressed itself with movement of the object in question (boat of procession etc.).

The concept of "another reality" was naturally present in the ancient Egyptian view of the universe. Other than Afterlife, accessible only by the deceased, the concept of "akh" (can be trabnslated as "radiant power") certainly is there. There are many indications that knowledge concerning this sphere was obtained by special training or initiation, but no evidence nor indication of this being ever done by rituals of shamanistic nature. However, the initiated speaker (most often the lector priest) was able to "actualize the realm" (Assmann's words, and I like them). And this was, apart from the sacred writing with glyphs, the main point in the priestly functions in the context of a burial and the deceased's access to afterlife (but that's another story).

Likewise with the AE magic. The "radiant power" which the divinities posessed was on the "human level" directly linked to speech and scared words (yes, hieroglyphs!!): the right spells would give the right result, and this no mater who the speaker was. Naturally, specialised spells (for serious healing etc.) were reserved for "doctors", but others, such as driving away the snakes, charms for love, protection etc. could be performed it seems by anybody who could read the magic words.
But again, the magicians or shamans are completely absent from this picture.

Of course, the very nature of the ancient Egyptian kingship could possibly be considered somewhat shamanistic (geez! What on earth is "somewhat shamanistic?). After all, the king was half divine himself due to being a Horus and the son of Ra, but while he was the link between his people and the divine, he didn't seem to have the direct ability to communicate with the divine realm, nor to interpret it. He was more of a mediator in the other direction: he made offerings and had stelae carved and temples built to pacify the divine, to keep Maat on earth.

So as you can see, Bernard, the typical shamanistic features are not there. I'd personally think this is very much due to the nature of the AE kingship. How could a magician or a shaman possibly have more abilities in the context of the divine realm, than the half divine king himself?


(Sorry, I am not a shaman in typing, had to edit many times sad smiley)



Ritva



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2007 11:32AM by ritva.
Subject Author Posted

shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 10, 2007 08:55PM

Tekenu and Shamanism

Greg Reeder August 10, 2007 10:43PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 11, 2007 06:18AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 11, 2007 11:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 11, 2007 04:12PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 11, 2007 03:50PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 11, 2007 05:43PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 12, 2007 09:04AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 12, 2007 10:48AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 13, 2007 06:00PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 13, 2007 11:47PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 11, 2007 05:16PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ken B August 11, 2007 06:19PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter August 12, 2007 08:17AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 12, 2007 10:43AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 08, 2007 12:29PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 08, 2007 01:07PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 08, 2007 03:40PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 08, 2007 03:52PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 09, 2007 04:01PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 09, 2007 07:37PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 10, 2007 03:48AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard September 10, 2007 11:55AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Damian Walter September 11, 2007 06:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 13, 2007 08:05PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 13, 2007 11:49PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 14, 2007 06:32PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 14, 2007 07:22PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 14, 2007 09:01PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 14, 2007 09:36PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 14, 2007 09:51PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 15, 2007 12:30AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 15, 2007 07:50AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 16, 2007 05:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 16, 2007 08:10AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 08:17AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 16, 2007 11:46AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 07:39PM

Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 16, 2007 08:05PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 08:24PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 01:22AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 03:39AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 07:33AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 07:50AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 08:27AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 08:44AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 09:01AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 09:06AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 09:18AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 10:13AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 17, 2007 09:48AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 09:53AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 08:50AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 10:18AM

Citations?

Anthony August 17, 2007 10:59AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 11:14AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 02:19PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 02:46PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Tommi Huhtamaki August 17, 2007 03:01PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 04:05PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 03:48PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 04:29PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 04:44PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 06:00PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 06:43PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 07:12PM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 07:54PM

Request ...

Hermione August 18, 2007 03:20AM

Re: Request ...

Doug M August 18, 2007 06:43AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 18, 2007 06:46AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 18, 2007 06:55AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 07:14PM

Sympathetic Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 20, 2007 12:00PM

Re: Sympathetic Magic in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 12:15PM

Intellectual Magic

Anthony August 20, 2007 01:09PM

Further note

Anthony August 20, 2007 01:14PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

bernard August 20, 2007 01:46PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

Anthony August 20, 2007 07:43PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

cladking August 20, 2007 04:30PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

Byrd August 20, 2007 06:51PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

cladking August 20, 2007 07:55PM

Re: Intellectual Magic

Byrd August 22, 2007 07:24PM

Re: Sympathetic Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 21, 2007 05:02AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 07:12PM

Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 06:14PM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 17, 2007 06:26PM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Anthony August 17, 2007 07:07PM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 18, 2007 07:01AM

Re: Real Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

Hermione August 18, 2007 07:41AM

**Sub-thread closed**

Hermione August 18, 2007 07:35AM

Re: Intellectual Magic in Egyptian religion

bernard August 17, 2007 11:57AM

Well said, Bernard

Anthony August 17, 2007 02:16PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 16, 2007 08:59AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 16, 2007 12:42PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 16, 2007 01:47PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 16, 2007 08:39PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 17, 2007 05:51AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 06:15AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 17, 2007 04:49AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 17, 2007 06:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 17, 2007 12:58PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 01:43AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 05:26AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 17, 2007 10:20AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 18, 2007 04:09AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 10:58AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 18, 2007 11:16AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 11:58AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 18, 2007 12:15PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 18, 2007 12:53PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 18, 2007 01:57PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 18, 2007 08:16PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 19, 2007 05:58AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 19, 2007 03:14PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 19, 2007 07:44PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 12:14AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 20, 2007 06:01AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 20, 2007 08:25AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 21, 2007 04:45AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 09:54AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 21, 2007 04:43AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 20, 2007 08:42AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Doug M August 20, 2007 07:39PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 19, 2007 09:13PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 05:28AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 10:16AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 20, 2007 09:37AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 10:13AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 11:11AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 11:18AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 20, 2007 11:50AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Rick Baudé August 20, 2007 12:18PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 20, 2007 01:17PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Byrd August 20, 2007 07:08PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg August 21, 2007 11:45AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Greg Reeder August 14, 2007 10:21PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 14, 2007 10:48PM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 15, 2007 01:25AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

bernard August 15, 2007 01:38AM

Re: shamanism in Egyptian religion

Ritva Kurittu August 15, 2007 09:50AM



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