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May 11, 2024, 8:15 am UTC    
December 31, 2007 10:56AM
Scott Creighton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you refer to the inscription as
> relaying to us a "legend". Legend perhaps,
> perhaps not. I find it somewhat contradictory
> that the priests of Edfu would legitimise their
> temple on a mere "legend".

Why? It was a reference to a much older era; the antiquity of the supposed tradition served the later purposes of the priests of Edfu. (

This "legend" had to
> have had - at least to the temple priests - some
> basis in truth.

No, it didn't.

> Unlike your analogy whereby the goddess Nisaba
> visited Gudea in a dream,

On further reflection, that probably wasn't a very good analogy (and, what's more, there were a few errors in my account - see below). Gudea wasn't claiming to get his plan from a very old source, but from a divine source.

Imhotep was a real
> historical figure (albeit deified by the time of
> the construction of Edfu), an architect no less
> who constructed the first pyramid. This we know
> is fact. However, what is very peculiar about the
> Edfu inscription is that it does not seek
> "legitimisation" of the temple through the
> "inspired hand of Imhotep" - if I can put it like
> that. It tells us quite explicitly that Imhotep
> received his inspiration from a codex. Why would
> the priests even mention this? They are
> effectively saying that the design of their temple
> at Edfu WAS NOT from the "inspired hand of
> Imhotep" but that Imhotep (a god by then) received
> his inspired wisdom from a codex. Why would a god
> require such assitance (from a codex)? The mere
> mention of the codex actually serves to undermine
> Imhotep's divine reverance and indeed his ability
> to legitimise the Edfu temple in the manner you
> allude to.

Such motifs are frequently found in the ancient Near East, though. In Gudea's dream, the goddess Nisaba "was holding the tablet of good writing of heaven" - although it should be made clear that this "good writing" was not the actual temple plan: the god Ningirsu revealed that to Gudea later. (Another example of something - not a temple plan, admittedly, but an object connected with a city foundation - falling from the sky is that of the palladium of Athena at Troy )

> In short, it simply does not add up. Had the
> temple priests of Edfu wished to legitimse their
> temple through an association with the god,
> Imhotep, they would not - IMO - then undermine
> their legitimisation of their temple by telling
> everyone that the design of the temple was not by
> the hand of Imhotep but that it came to Imhotep
> already made. They would have done a better job
> of this legitimisation by telling us that Imhotep
> received his divine inspiration in a dream - just
> like Gudea.

I rather think that the suggestion that the codex fell from the sky is probably an indication of its divine origin ...

On Gudea's dream:

Quote

Gudea built - or rather rebuilt - at least fifteen temples in Lagash, but on none of them was he so lavish as on the E-ninnu, the temple of Ningirsu, the city-god. On two large clay cylinders and on some of his statue inscriptions, he explains at length why and how he built it, giving us incidentally, invaluable details on the complicated rites essential to the foundation of sanctuaries in ancient Mesopotamia. It is typical of Sumerian thinking that the decision to erect a temple is given, not as an act of will of the ruler, but as the fulfilment of a wish of the god expressed in the form of a mysterious dream:

"In the heart of a dream, here was a man: his height equalled the sky, his height equalled the earth ... To his right and to his left, lions were crouching ... He told me to build him a temple, but I did not understand his hear (= his desire) ...

"Here was a woman. Who was she not, who was she? ... She was holding in her hand a stylus of flaming metal; she was holding the tablet of good writing of heaven; she was immersed in her thoughts ... "

Troubled and perplexed, Gudea first sought comfort from his 'mother', the goddess Gatumdug, and then proceeded by boat to the temple of the goddess Nanshe 'interpreter of dreams'. Nanshe explained that the man was Ningirsu and the woman Nisaba, the goddess of science; she advised Gudea to offer Ningirsu a chariot 'adorned with shining metal and lapis lazuli'.

"Then, inscrutable as the sky, the wisdom of the Lord, of Ningirsu, the son of Enlil, will soothe thee. He will reveal to thee the plan of His temple, and the Warrior whose decrees are great will build it for thee."

Gudea obeyed. (Roux, G. (1964), "Ancient Iraq", George Allen & Unwin: 140-141)

My apologies: as already mentioned, it appears that I had some details incorrect in my previous post on this subject. The name of the temple was Eninnu; the name of the god, Ningirsu; and it was not the goddess Nisaba, but Ningirsu himelf, who revealed the plan of the temple to Gudea.

Hermione
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Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Correcting your false statements

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Re: Correcting your false statements

Scott Creighton December 21, 2007 08:16AM

Re: Correcting your false statements

Anthony December 21, 2007 08:24AM

Have to do better, Anthony - much better!

Scott Creighton December 21, 2007 08:52AM

Please don't attempt to paraphrase me

Anthony December 21, 2007 08:58AM

Re: Please don't attempt to paraphrase me

Scott Creighton December 21, 2007 09:15AM

Please don't attempt to paraphrase me II

Anthony December 21, 2007 09:20AM

Re: Please don't attempt to paraphrase me II

Scott Creighton December 21, 2007 09:34AM

*Moderation note*

Hermione December 21, 2007 09:56AM

Re: Correcting your false statements

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Re: Correcting your false statements

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Re: Correcting your false statements

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Pan generational does not equate to geometric layout

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Scott Creighton December 30, 2007 11:19AM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Hermione December 30, 2007 11:36AM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Scott Creighton December 30, 2007 12:59PM

perhaps I'm staing teh obvious but..

Warwick L Nixon December 30, 2007 02:15PM

Re: perhaps I'm staing teh obvious but..

Scott Creighton December 30, 2007 02:25PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Hermione December 31, 2007 10:56AM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Scott Creighton December 31, 2007 12:39PM

George Washington and the Cherry Tree

Warwick L Nixon December 31, 2007 12:59PM

Re: George Washington and the Cherry Tree

Scott Creighton December 31, 2007 01:04PM

Re: George Washington and the Cherry Tree

Warwick L Nixon December 31, 2007 01:17PM

Different directions, same endpoint

Anthony December 20, 2007 07:54AM

Re: Different directions, same endpoint

cladking December 20, 2007 11:23AM

Re: Different directions, same endpoint

Anthony December 20, 2007 07:08PM

Re: Different directions, same endpoint

cladking December 20, 2007 07:38PM

Re: Different directions, same endpoint

MJ Thomas December 20, 2007 02:13PM

Re: Different directions, same endpoint

Anthony December 20, 2007 07:20PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

C Wayne Taylor December 20, 2007 09:46AM

I'm sorry.

Anthony December 20, 2007 10:02AM

Re: I'm sorry.

Scott Creighton December 21, 2007 07:15AM

Re: I'm sorry.

Anthony December 21, 2007 07:18AM

Re: I'm sorry.

Scott Creighton December 21, 2007 07:30AM

Re: I'm sorry.

Anthony December 21, 2007 08:03AM

Re: I'm sorry.

cladking December 21, 2007 06:14PM

Re: I'm sorry.

Scott Creighton December 21, 2007 07:30AM

Re: I'm sorry.

C Wayne Taylor December 21, 2007 08:20AM

Re: I'm sorry.

Anthony December 21, 2007 08:26AM

*Moderation note*

Hermione December 21, 2007 09:53AM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

MJ Thomas December 20, 2007 11:36AM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Anthony December 21, 2007 06:27AM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Scott Creighton December 20, 2007 12:22PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Don Barone December 20, 2007 03:19PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Don Barone December 20, 2007 03:45PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Scott Creighton December 20, 2007 06:36PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Scott Creighton December 20, 2007 06:05PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Don Barone December 20, 2007 01:21PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Warwick L Nixon December 20, 2007 01:33PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

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Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Gerd VDC December 20, 2007 02:37PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

cladking December 20, 2007 02:57PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Anthony December 21, 2007 08:17AM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

cladking December 21, 2007 11:33AM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Ronald December 20, 2007 05:23PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Jammer December 21, 2007 03:38PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Jon_B December 20, 2007 02:57PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Scott Creighton December 20, 2007 06:10PM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Don Barone December 23, 2007 09:46AM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Hermione December 23, 2007 10:13AM

Re: Death knell for a Pan-Generational Giza?

Jammer December 23, 2007 12:49PM

Even if you could kill it...

cladking December 23, 2007 11:36AM

Re: Even if you could kill it...

Anthony December 23, 2007 12:35PM

Re: Even if you could kill it...

MJ Thomas December 23, 2007 12:57PM

just follow the links

Warwick L Nixon December 24, 2007 01:26PM

Re: just follow the links

MJ Thomas December 24, 2007 03:16PM

Re: just follow the links

cladking December 24, 2007 08:12PM

Context

Warwick L Nixon December 26, 2007 10:34AM

Re: Context

MJ Thomas December 26, 2007 12:31PM

Re: Context

Warwick L Nixon December 26, 2007 02:09PM

Re: Context

MJ Thomas December 26, 2007 02:48PM

*Moderation note*

Hermione December 26, 2007 03:30PM

Re: Context

cladking December 26, 2007 05:44PM

Re: Context

Warwick L Nixon December 27, 2007 11:41AM

Re: Context

cladking December 27, 2007 04:12PM

Re: Context

Scott Creighton December 27, 2007 04:23PM

Re: Context

cladking December 27, 2007 04:41PM

Re: Context

Warwick L Nixon December 28, 2007 11:18AM

Re: Context

Scott Creighton December 28, 2007 11:33AM

Re: Context

Warwick L Nixon December 28, 2007 11:44AM

Re: Context

Scott Creighton December 28, 2007 12:07PM

Re: Context

Warwick L Nixon December 28, 2007 12:26PM

Re: Context

Scott Creighton December 28, 2007 12:36PM

Re: Context

Warwick L Nixon December 28, 2007 12:44PM

Re: Context

Scott Creighton December 28, 2007 12:51PM

*Note to sub-thread*

Hermione December 28, 2007 12:56PM

Re: Context

Warwick L Nixon December 28, 2007 11:15AM

Re: Context

Jammer December 27, 2007 12:28PM

Re: Context

cladking December 27, 2007 04:34PM

Re: Context

Jammer December 27, 2007 04:54PM

Re: Context

cladking December 27, 2007 05:38PM

Re: Context

Jammer December 28, 2007 01:21PM

Re: Context

cladking December 28, 2007 02:53PM

Re: Context

Ritva Kurittu December 28, 2007 03:14PM

Re: Context

cladking December 28, 2007 03:47PM

Re: Context

Ritva Kurittu December 28, 2007 03:57PM

Re: Context

cladking December 28, 2007 04:51PM

Re: Context

Ritva Kurittu December 28, 2007 05:17PM

Re: Context

cladking December 28, 2007 06:42PM

Re: Context

Ritva Kurittu December 29, 2007 12:56PM

Re: Context

cladking December 29, 2007 06:04PM

Re: Context

Ritva Kurittu January 01, 2008 01:52PM

Re: Context

cladking January 01, 2008 05:49PM

Re: Context

Ritva Kurittu January 02, 2008 03:28AM

Re: Context

Ritva Kurittu December 28, 2007 03:19PM

Re: Context

cladking December 28, 2007 01:59AM

Re: Context

Ritva Kurittu December 28, 2007 10:48AM

Re: Context

Warwick L Nixon December 28, 2007 11:23AM

Re: Context

Ritva Kurittu December 28, 2007 03:15PM

Re: Context

Jammer December 28, 2007 04:00PM

Re: Context

Jammer December 27, 2007 11:27AM

Re: just follow the links

Warwick L Nixon December 26, 2007 10:36AM

Re: just follow the links

cladking December 24, 2007 07:55PM

Re: Even if you could kill it...

cladking December 23, 2007 02:19PM

Re: Even if you could kill it...

Joe_S December 24, 2007 03:26AM



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