Hello Clive,

You write, ‘but who confirmed that G1 was built exclusively for Khufu and who can verify it built prior to G2? And what prevented all three at Giza being constructed simultaneously? Please...no hypothesis of kingship-power over all, including the next of kin...there's no evidence.’

I think that the only way we can know for certain the sequence of events and who did what at Giza is through contemporary and directly relevent original texts and plans – and they are conspicuous by their total absence.
Hence we have to settle for what other evidence is available and make of it what we can, which IMO goes some way to explaining why there are so many hypotheses on the subject.
As you know, the consensus is that G1 was built by Khufu, G2 by Khafre, and so on.
I am happy to go along with this consensus - unless and until somebody tries to tell me it is a fact.


I wrote, ‘…I wrote “(for whatever reason)” simply to avoid getting into discussions here about why Khufu chose the rock outcrop as the site for his pyramid.
For example, I think the Grotto was part of the reason whereas Anthony favours..."

You respond, ‘The Grotto is one of your three statements supporting the reason for location, therefore you should explain in detail why Khufu elected to construct a monument containing over 2,500,000 cubic meters of stone directly on top of that "come-by-chance" hole...if that were the case.’

I’ll happily discuss this particular subject in detail with anybody, but not in this thread.
As I said to Anthony, it will take us too far away from this thread’s topic.
If you or anybody else should start a separate thread on it, I’ll jump in with both feet - and probably with my eyes shut.


You ask, ‘Was Khufu initially satisfied with a simple mastaba...’

I don’t know, Clive.
If push comes to shove, then I’d say it was unlikely.


You ask, ‘was the original design at Giza to include a pyramid like those before him...yes...no?’

Once again, I can’t give a yes/no answer.
I imagine that the Plateau was to all intents and purposes empty until the first pyramid was built there.


You write, ‘Fresh air had to be pumped into the lower section, while stale air was directed upward for one reason only; they built the descending passage !’
Etc., etc., etc.

Sorry, Clive, I’m not sure what you mean here.
Are you saying that because of the Well Shaft it was unnecessary to have the Descending Passage (or vice versa)?

When the Well Shaft was blocked, working conditions at the bottom of the Descending Passage and through into the Subterranean Chamber were extreme, to say the least (confirmation of this can be found in first-hand and other accounts by Petrie, J & M Edgar, Howard Vyse, Piazzi Smyth, Caviglia et al).
It is essentially because of this that I believe the purpose of the Well Shaft was to aid (in conjunction with the DP) a continuous supply of fresh (or fresher, at least) air to the craftsmen working at the bottom of the DP and eventually through into the SC and its Blind Passage)


You write, ‘a) G2 uses more of the natural hillside core material than G1.’

Well, yes, preparing the site of Khafre’s pyramid required a lot of quarrying into the hillside.
I presume the quarried material ended up as core blocks.
As far as can be determined, this was not the case with Khufu’s pyramid.


You write, ‘b) If Khafree had elected, then he could have dug another 20 Rc deeper to maintain the identical base level as his father, and that would have reduced the stone requirement further...but he didn't.’

Perhaps Khafre realised that with a bit of judicious quarrying into the hillside next to his father’s pyramid he could not only dominate his father’s tomb but also do it with fewer and smaller blocks.
This strikes me as a pretty good explanation for Khafre’s pyramid being where it is (given that Khufu’s pyramid had been built before G2 ), but, then, I’m not a 4th Dyn. Egyptian…


You write, ‘c) You cannot do any math on this because you do not know the natural level of the hillside prior to construction.’

Which is exactly why I wrote: “(I have yet to do the maths on this to get a guesstimate of the volume saved).


I wrote, ‘…Khufu was not expecting anybody – least of all a family member? – to build a pyramid “in the shadow of his own” (so to speak), and thus allowed practical considerations to over-ride any desire to build on higher but less easily adapted and developed ground. ..”

You ask, ‘a) How do you know he was not expecting someone?’

I don’t.
It’s a speculation, Clive.


You write, ‘b) His choice of location is on the northern-most section of the area. Any further north-east and it would be hanging over the hillside and you know it !’


But I haven’t mentioned anything at all about the area north-east of Khufu’s pyramid.
Consequently, I fail to see what your point is here.


You write, ‘c) The material for this pyramid was pulled up the main causeway (G1 doesn’t/didn’t have one) or mined at the quarry south of this causeway. IOW all of the materialfor G1 was hauled passed the location of G2.
Sorry to say but your logic is upsidedown.’

I don’t think logic comes into this, Clive.
We are dealing with a people insane enough to build (with blocks of stone weighing from 2 to 10s of tons) what would become the single largest stone structure in the world for millenia to come.
Do you honestly think these people would be particularly concerned about moving their large blocks of quarried stone an extra, what, 500 feet or so?*


I wrote, “…I see Khufu’s son and immediate successor, Djedfre, locating his pyramid at Abu Roash, some 5 miles from Giza, as supporting my contention that his father was not expecting anybody to build a pyramid close to his…”

You reply, ‘I see time running out for Khufu and sending his oldest son Djadfre to Abu Roash to overlook that project. A busy pyramid building family.’

If, repeat if, the view that a King did not start on his own pyramid until his predecessor-to-be shuffled off his mortal coil and became his actual predecessor, then I can see a problem with this.


I wrote, "...The base of Khufu’s pyramid is a near perfect square that is aligned very, very close to North. This could have been and therefore probably was achieved through the use of basic geometry..."

You reply, ‘The accuracy in alignment with true north is within arc seconds of a degree and who can claim that Earth has not shifted since construction?
IOW...they may have built it "perfect" to north...not...very close.’

Indeed they may have.


You write, ‘The second point you have overlooked is the square of its base to all four sides; can you explain how it was accomplished?
I take it you referring to the angles of the corners at the base?
If they were intended to be right-angles, then they are singularly impressive.
But I’m minded that these corners are even more accurate than yourself and others may think.
I have reason to suggest that the corners are intentionally less or more than right-angles, and the varying lengths of the sides at the base also are precisely (within a couple of millimeters) as intended.

You continue, ‘it had Petrie stumped, he makes note of that very point, and he used "advanced" geometry, trigonometry and logarithms...right?’

I think it fair to say, Clive, that it – i.e. how it was done – has everybody stumped.
However, I don’t think that our not knowing precisely how the surveying and measuring was carried out is sufficient reason to imply the employment of geometry skills and surveying equipment as sophisticated or better than Petrie’s ‘"advanced" geometry, trigonometry and logarithms’.

For all any of us know (including myself) the Egyptian surveyors may have been blissfully unaware of just how close to a perfect N-S orientation and set of perfect right-angles they got.

One question I ask myself re this apparent perfection in the geometry of the base of Khufu’s is: why don’t we see it elsewhere – particularly in the pyramids post Khufu.
The answer could be simply that after Khufu the AEs couldn’t be bothered to strive for such accuracy.
Then there’s the possibility that it was a fluke.


I wrote, "...the phenomenally accurate leveling of the sides at the base could have been achieved by the use of water-filled channels – whether this is how it was actually done is a matter of opinion. Given the AEs skills at irrigation I’d say it is most likely..."

You reply, ‘Odd that you emphasize phenomenally accurate since this was the easiest of all measure to accomplish. Water leveling had been around since the beginning of civilization...!’

Believe me, Clive, I couldn’t do it.
I view a level out by 1/8” over a distance of some 9,070” as phenomenal.
I find just about every aspect and feature of this Pyramid phenomenal to some degree.
Your “emphasize” is an inference drawn by you.


You write, ‘The apex must also be considered:
Can you explain how they constructed 200+ courses, ending with the last course’s center point within a hand's width of true center?’

Clive, I hardly qualify as a DIYer let alone a civil engineer.
However, I’ll hazard that the builders had a motto similar to the one many craftsmen today have: measure twice, cut once.
Though I suspect that in the case of the AEs it was more: measure ten times and cut once, or end up underneath that core block over there… :
I think we need to allow for the fact that we are dealing with a culture that had a lot of skilled workers, a lot of time, and a lot of motivation.


I wrote, ‘...I can even tell you what the intended dimensions were (all as a hypothesis, of course)..."

You reply, ‘No...you have the dimensions...they cannot be adjusted...they are your bible !’

I don’t know about anybody else, Clive, but I’m certainly not adjusting any actual dimensions.
I have a very, very long list of ‘intended’ dimensions (rcs @ 524 mms) compared to actual dimensions (mms and inches into mms).
The results vary from a perfect match to plus or minus, say, 3 millimeters.
As you know, some of the Pyramid’s features are severly worn or damaged, consequently some of their dimensions have to be deduced from projections from undamaged or worn sections - the Great Step is a perfect example of this (see Petrie 1883)


You write, ‘I explained...I will prove...not hypothesize. There's already too many of those going around. Can you do likewise?’

Nope.
For me the only acceptable proof regarding the how and why of Khufu’s pyramid is the original plans and ‘guidance notes’, and contemporary texts about the Afterlife beliefs, etc.
Without this we all can only hypothesis – hopefully sensibly.


You write, ‘The story starts at the beginning...the Step pyramid.’

Some of us prefer to go farther back than that…

Regards,

MJ

*prompts the thought that the Grotto was more important than the worke to be saved by utilising the outcrop.