Home of the The Hall of Ma'at on the Internet
Home
Discussion Forums
Papers
Authors
Web Links

May 5, 2024, 11:04 pm UTC    
October 15, 2007 09:22PM
The condition of Tut's chin and teeth is normally labeled as a form of prognathism which many identify as something commonly found among black Africans. In the old days of racist anthropology, such a trait was considered a hallmark for identifying Negroid skulls. Things have changed a lot, but certainly the fact that prognathism is a common feature among skulls of black Africans along the Nile certainly is something to be taken into consideration. How many of the population in modern Egypt have such a condition in their skulls? So, once again, you see that the data set used determines how the reconstruction is done. If most of your models are based on data sets from Europe, it will skew the results towards Europe. Obviously prognathism does no only occur among Africans, but to take the data from a wide range of African crania and compare it to Tut's cranium would be a lot more accurate in terms of overall affinity with other Africans as well as neighboring populations in the Levant and Europe as well. But again, since the ancient Egyptians weren't Africans and certainly not black Africans any comparison with skulls from black Africans would be deemed as "irrelevant" or "unnecessary". To me that is simply irresponsible and unscientific.

Quote

Although the categorization of a skull is clearly given arbitrary parameters, it will not locate the owners geographic ancestry concretely all the time. While one's perception of an individual's race can be affected by cultural aspects, the "race" of his skull is less ambiguous. As Dr. Stan Rhine put it, "...it is clear that race does mean different things to different people. In the context of forensic anthropology, the term race is unambiguous."[4] Although their craniofacial race based on skull indices is unambiguous, it will not pin point their geographic origins accurately all the time due to variation in skulls within a geographic region.

While this method produces useful results for the population of the United States, it is likely that it would not be reliable for populations from other countries[5] or historical periods.[6] This is due to the fact that the United States has traditionally had groups whose ancestries came from geographically distant locations, and which have generally remained endogamous in this country, for social reasons. As more immigrants from in between regions and as Americans become more racially mixed, such craniofacial identification is problematic.

Classification by craniofacial anthropometry does not necessarily coincide with genetic ancestry or social self-identification. For example, about one-third of so-called "White" Americans have detectable African DNA markers.[7] And about five percent of so-called "Black" Americans have no detectable "Negroid" traits at all, neither craniofacial nor in their DNA.[8] In short, given three Americans, one who self-identifies and is socially accepted as U.S. White, another one who self-identifies and is socially accepted as U.S. Black, and one who self-identifies and is socially accepted as U.S. Hispanic, and given that they have precisely the same Afro-European mix of ancestries (one "mulatto" grandparent), there is quite literally no objective test that will identify their U.S. endogamous group membership without an interview.[9] In practice, the application of such forensic criteria ultimately comes down to whether the skull "looks Negroid," "Caucasoid," or "Mongoloid" in the eye of each U.S. forensic practitioner.
From: [en.wikipedia.org]

Word games played with skeletal anthropology:
Quote

Issues of "true negro" stereotyping

Modern re-analyses of previous studies shows a clear tendency deny or minimize variability within the ancient Egyptian population.[14], As far as Negroid elements, [15]this takes the form of establishing a baseline determination for a "true negro" (generally a sub-Saharan type) and anything not closely matching this extreme type is disregarded or incorporated into a Caucasoid or "Mediterranean" cluster. Conversely the same selective classification scheme is not applied to groups traditionally categorized as Caucasoid. Scholars such as Carelton Coons report "Mediterranean" remains that seem to have "Negroid" traits but do not mention the opposite, nor have scholars generally bothered to define a similarly stereotypical "true white." Documentation shows researchers repeatedly excluding or minimizing certain skeletal remains in formulating approaches to the ancient Egyptian people. For example:

"Nutter (1958), using the Penrose statistic, demonstrated that Nagada I and Badari crania, both regarded as Negroid, were almost identical and that these were most similar to the Negroid Nubian series from Kerma studied by Collett (1933). [Collett, not accepting variability, excluded “clear negro” crania found in the Kerma series from her analysis, as did Morant (1925), implying that they were foreign.].."[16]

Some anthropologists maintain that these methods still continue with the use of more modern statistical aggregation techniques based on crania or on dental morphology. They include selective frontloading of measured indices to minimize variability, using the stereotypical "true" sub-Saharan type as a basis for comparison, separating out adjacent Nile Valley and Northeast African populations like Ethiopians and Somalians, and grouping all else not meeting the extreme sub-Saharan type into broad Caucasoid clusters, although such clustering may be given different names like "North African", "Middle Eastern" or "Southwest Asian". (The Persistence of Racial Thinking and the Myth of Racial Divergence, S. O. Y. Keita, Rick A. Kittles, 1997)[17]

Issues of lumping under Mediterranean clusters

Re-analyses of scholarship show a clear tendency to lump remains under broad clusters or categories such as Mediterranean. Numerous studies of Egyptian crania have been undertaken, with many showing a range of types, and workers often describing substantial Negroid remains. Often this type has been lumped into a Caucasoid cluster, typically using the term "Mediterranean." A majority of these studies show the strong influence of Sudanic and Saharan elements in the predynastic populations and yet classifictions systems often incorporate them into the Mediterranean grouping. (Vercoutter J (1978) The Peopling of ancient Egypt)[18]
From: [en.wikipedia.org]

Subject Author Posted

Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

clem ciamarra October 05, 2007 09:40PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

David Johnson October 06, 2007 07:23AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 06, 2007 09:17AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Katherine Reece October 14, 2007 04:05PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 06, 2007 10:30AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Greg Reeder October 06, 2007 02:38PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Rick Baudé October 06, 2007 04:14PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 06, 2007 04:29PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Rick Baudé October 06, 2007 04:57PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

clem ciamarra October 06, 2007 07:46PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Rick Baudé October 06, 2007 08:03PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

fmetrol October 06, 2007 10:25PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 07, 2007 10:42AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

fmetrol October 07, 2007 04:59PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 08, 2007 11:29AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

clem ciamarra October 08, 2007 12:27PM

Tyrrhenses

Hermione October 08, 2007 02:18PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 07, 2007 10:39AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

clem ciamarra October 07, 2007 02:15PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 08, 2007 09:32AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

clem ciamarra October 08, 2007 11:54AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 07, 2007 06:26PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Tommi Huhtamaki October 08, 2007 10:04AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Greg Reeder October 06, 2007 06:30PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Rick Baudé October 06, 2007 07:21PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Khazar-khum October 07, 2007 12:39AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 07, 2007 10:44AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Khazar-khum October 07, 2007 03:15PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 07, 2007 06:46PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Greg Reeder October 07, 2007 07:02PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 07, 2007 07:39PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Doug M October 06, 2007 10:08PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

clem ciamarra October 07, 2007 01:15AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Hermione October 07, 2007 03:35AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

clem ciamarra October 07, 2007 01:35PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Doug Weller October 08, 2007 01:26AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

clem ciamarra October 08, 2007 06:40PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 09, 2007 09:58AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 07, 2007 10:52AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 07, 2007 02:50PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Tommi Huhtamaki October 07, 2007 03:18PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

bernard October 07, 2007 04:20PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Tommi Huhtamaki October 07, 2007 04:34PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

bernard October 07, 2007 05:09PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Rick Baudé October 07, 2007 04:28PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 07, 2007 04:54PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

bernard October 07, 2007 04:59PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 07, 2007 05:12PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

bernard October 07, 2007 06:41PM

PhotoShop fun

Greg Reeder October 07, 2007 07:15PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 08, 2007 09:46AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Rick Baudé October 07, 2007 09:53PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 08, 2007 09:51AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Rick Baudé October 08, 2007 08:28PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 11, 2007 08:06AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 11, 2007 09:44AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Khazar-khum October 11, 2007 03:18PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 13, 2007 11:37AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Doug M October 09, 2007 06:49AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 09, 2007 08:09AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Doug M October 09, 2007 06:56PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 09, 2007 07:35PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Doug M October 10, 2007 04:58AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 10, 2007 12:27PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 10, 2007 12:43PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 10, 2007 02:13PM

Moderator's note

Hermione October 09, 2007 08:59AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Rick Baudé October 10, 2007 11:25PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 11, 2007 10:17AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 11, 2007 12:00PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Rick Baudé October 11, 2007 09:22PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 13, 2007 11:39AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 13, 2007 11:51AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 13, 2007 11:58AM

An honest answer to Greg....

darkuser October 14, 2007 06:27PM

Re: An honest answer to Greg....

Roxana Cooper October 15, 2007 09:51AM

Re: An honest answer to Greg....

Doug October 16, 2007 05:41AM

Re: An honest answer to Greg....

Roxana Cooper October 16, 2007 10:01AM

Re: An honest answer to Greg....

Doug October 16, 2007 07:40PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

clem ciamarra October 07, 2007 05:57PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 08, 2007 09:06PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 09, 2007 11:34AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 09, 2007 04:23PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 09, 2007 06:49PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 09, 2007 06:43PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Warwick L Nixon October 09, 2007 09:55PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 10, 2007 05:09AM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 10, 2007 06:39AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 10, 2007 07:32AM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 10, 2007 09:31AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 10, 2007 07:45PM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 11, 2007 06:00AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 11, 2007 07:27AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 11, 2007 09:54AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 11, 2007 06:26PM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 11, 2007 06:45PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Jammer October 12, 2007 07:30AM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 12, 2007 09:06AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 12, 2007 09:29AM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 12, 2007 05:41PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 14, 2007 07:37PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Jammer October 16, 2007 09:50AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 11, 2007 06:51PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 11, 2007 07:39PM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 11, 2007 11:27PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 12, 2007 04:22AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 12, 2007 08:02AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Greg Reeder October 12, 2007 08:31AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 12, 2007 08:47AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 12, 2007 09:30AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 12, 2007 09:59AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 13, 2007 11:46AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 14, 2007 08:41PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 15, 2007 09:55AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 15, 2007 09:44PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 16, 2007 02:15PM

The Big Lie!

Greg Reeder October 16, 2007 11:39PM

Re: The Big Lie!

Khazar-khum October 17, 2007 01:50AM

Re: The Big Lie!

Doug October 17, 2007 08:50AM

Re: The Big Lie!

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 11:37AM

Re: The Big Lie!

Hermione October 17, 2007 03:46AM

Re: The Big Lie!

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 11:34AM

Note

Hermione October 17, 2007 01:58PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 08:05AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 11:38AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 12:45PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 02:20PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 04:34PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug Weller October 18, 2007 04:57AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 18, 2007 07:32AM

Re: Elements of A lie

bernard October 10, 2007 11:40AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 10, 2007 10:04AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 10, 2007 08:27PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 11, 2007 09:59AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Greg Reeder October 11, 2007 10:23AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 11, 2007 06:37PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 11, 2007 07:33PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 11, 2007 07:52PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 12, 2007 12:46AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 12, 2007 04:36AM

Note to sub-thread

Hermione October 12, 2007 06:28AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 12, 2007 01:32PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 13, 2007 09:30AM

Closure of sub-thread

Hermione October 13, 2007 09:57AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 14, 2007 07:34PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Reece October 14, 2007 07:41PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 14, 2007 08:17PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 14, 2007 10:20PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 15, 2007 06:20AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 15, 2007 01:20PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 15, 2007 09:22PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 16, 2007 02:16PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 16, 2007 02:48PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 17, 2007 02:02AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 17, 2007 04:26AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 11:39AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 15, 2007 01:33PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 15, 2007 03:38PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 15, 2007 03:44PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 16, 2007 02:17PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 15, 2007 03:39PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 17, 2007 04:42AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 18, 2007 03:53PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 15, 2007 09:59AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 16, 2007 05:26AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 16, 2007 02:21PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 16, 2007 11:42PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 17, 2007 02:00AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 08:24AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 11:45AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 04:07PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 04:43PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 07:05PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 18, 2007 12:38AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 18, 2007 05:43AM

Re: Elements of A lie

bernard October 18, 2007 09:59AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 18, 2007 08:39PM

Re: Elements of A lie

bernard October 18, 2007 09:33PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 19, 2007 12:06AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 18, 2007 09:49AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 18, 2007 08:50PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 18, 2007 11:50PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 21, 2007 09:46PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 22, 2007 03:38AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 22, 2007 04:36AM

Sub-thread closed

Hermione October 22, 2007 07:28AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 18, 2007 03:57PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 18, 2007 09:04PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 18, 2007 11:52PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 21, 2007 09:53PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 22, 2007 04:31AM

Sub-thread closed

Hermione October 22, 2007 07:30AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 19, 2007 11:24AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 10, 2007 01:50PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Greg Reeder October 10, 2007 02:38PM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 10, 2007 06:48PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 11, 2007 08:36AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Greg Reeder October 11, 2007 10:01AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 11, 2007 11:43AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 11, 2007 04:53PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 13, 2007 09:35AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 25, 2007 05:06AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 26, 2007 12:35PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 26, 2007 08:29PM

Note

Hermione October 27, 2007 05:16AM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 27, 2007 01:45PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

Anthony October 27, 2007 02:38PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 28, 2007 04:18PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 28, 2007 09:23PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 30, 2007 04:53PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 31, 2007 09:41AM

**Moderation note - sub-thread closed**

Hermione October 31, 2007 11:07AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Warwick L Nixon October 13, 2007 12:33PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 14, 2007 09:18AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 14, 2007 10:25AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Warwick L Nixon October 14, 2007 01:06PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Byrd October 07, 2007 09:07PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Doug October 14, 2007 07:48PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Lee October 09, 2007 09:41AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Khazar-khum October 09, 2007 04:44PM



Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login