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May 6, 2024, 9:38 am UTC    
October 14, 2007 08:17PM
My disagreement is with calling a reconstruction by people living thousands of years later "evidence", when they aren't. King Tut's face mask, may or may not be idealistic, but that is evidence. Those artworks done while he was alive may or may not been idealistic, but they are true evidence and they all had a similar look to them, enough for the features of Tut to be recognizable in any anonymous gallery of Egyptian art. None of the reconstructions are the least bit similar. You and I don't know how idealistic or realistic it is because neither of us saw the boy in life. For anyone to say that they would need more than what current technology can provide, which is a time machine. Reconstructions are not on the same level of evidence and don't come anywhere near enough to be considered as more substantial "evidence" than the face mask or other art done of the boy king while alive.

I agree that idealized portraits were the norm and that AE art was anything but realistic. However, to take a face mask which would most likely been a very close likeness of the Boy King and treat it as oh so much irrelevant trash that just happens to be pretty and then putting some modern artwork together as somehow more definitive is absurdly ridiculous. At the end of the day it is mere speculation and modern opinions and speculation in the form of reconstructions are not more definitive than those artworks done during the time of the AEs themselves.

However, idealized or not, why is a reconstruction necessary? Even a reconstruction is idealized based on mathematical and statistical data sets. Idealized does not mean inaccurate. Portraits of George Washington did not show his warts and wrinkles, yet that doesn't mean that they aren't accurate. Greek and Roman art was idealized but yet there is no one running around trying to do reconstructions of Alexander the Great, because the artwork was idealized.

No. Reconstructions don't provide us any better of an understanding of how tut looked in life and certainly are not more accurate in any sense of the term than the mummy mask. The fact that 3 teams came up with 3 different views of the boy kind from the same 1 skull shows that reconstructions are not accurate and are highly subject to interperetation. That is the biggest fact and underlying point that these reconstructions point out and undermines any and all attempts to suggest they are some sort of definitive proof of how he looked. And that is only the latest set of reconstructions, not to mention all those which were done previously on the boy king, but somehow Zahi seems to forget about those.

And also I would say the same thing about reconstructions even if reconstructions were attempted of Alexander, early Chinese Emperors or Mayan kings. It still would be laughable, as whatever artwork remains from these times and places is more than enough to understand the identity of these people as Europeans, Asians and Native Americans and not some special type of "other". Only in Egypt is it necessary to take the identity of an ancient civilization and turn it into some type of "other" than and separate from the people indigenous to the areas from which it existed. There is no where else on the planet is such a concept or distinction necessary.

And the fact that modern Egypt is fundamentally different than ancient Egypt in many ways is undeniable and there are many more descendants of foreigners from Europe, Turkey, the Levant and elsewhere, especially in the North, to suggest they are 100% the same as in ancient times. But even with that, there are also many indigenous black African Egyptians in all parts of Egypt who are just as indigenous to Egypt as those who have a greater degree of foreign ancestry.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2007 08:30PM by Doug M.
Subject Author Posted

Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

clem ciamarra October 05, 2007 09:40PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

David Johnson October 06, 2007 07:23AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 06, 2007 09:17AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Katherine Reece October 14, 2007 04:05PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 06, 2007 10:30AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Greg Reeder October 06, 2007 02:38PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Rick Baudé October 06, 2007 04:14PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 06, 2007 04:29PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Rick Baudé October 06, 2007 04:57PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

clem ciamarra October 06, 2007 07:46PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Rick Baudé October 06, 2007 08:03PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

fmetrol October 06, 2007 10:25PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 07, 2007 10:42AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

fmetrol October 07, 2007 04:59PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 08, 2007 11:29AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

clem ciamarra October 08, 2007 12:27PM

Tyrrhenses

Hermione October 08, 2007 02:18PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 07, 2007 10:39AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

clem ciamarra October 07, 2007 02:15PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 08, 2007 09:32AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

clem ciamarra October 08, 2007 11:54AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 07, 2007 06:26PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Tommi Huhtamaki October 08, 2007 10:04AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Greg Reeder October 06, 2007 06:30PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Rick Baudé October 06, 2007 07:21PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Khazar-khum October 07, 2007 12:39AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Roxana Cooper October 07, 2007 10:44AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Khazar-khum October 07, 2007 03:15PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 07, 2007 06:46PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Greg Reeder October 07, 2007 07:02PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 07, 2007 07:39PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Doug M October 06, 2007 10:08PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

clem ciamarra October 07, 2007 01:15AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Hermione October 07, 2007 03:35AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

clem ciamarra October 07, 2007 01:35PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Doug Weller October 08, 2007 01:26AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

clem ciamarra October 08, 2007 06:40PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 09, 2007 09:58AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 07, 2007 10:52AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 07, 2007 02:50PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Tommi Huhtamaki October 07, 2007 03:18PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

bernard October 07, 2007 04:20PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Tommi Huhtamaki October 07, 2007 04:34PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

bernard October 07, 2007 05:09PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Rick Baudé October 07, 2007 04:28PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 07, 2007 04:54PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

bernard October 07, 2007 04:59PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 07, 2007 05:12PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

bernard October 07, 2007 06:41PM

PhotoShop fun

Greg Reeder October 07, 2007 07:15PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 08, 2007 09:46AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Rick Baudé October 07, 2007 09:53PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 08, 2007 09:51AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Rick Baudé October 08, 2007 08:28PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 11, 2007 08:06AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 11, 2007 09:44AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Khazar-khum October 11, 2007 03:18PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 13, 2007 11:37AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Doug M October 09, 2007 06:49AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 09, 2007 08:09AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Doug M October 09, 2007 06:56PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 09, 2007 07:35PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Doug M October 10, 2007 04:58AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 10, 2007 12:27PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 10, 2007 12:43PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 10, 2007 02:13PM

Moderator's note

Hermione October 09, 2007 08:59AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Rick Baudé October 10, 2007 11:25PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 11, 2007 10:17AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 11, 2007 12:00PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Rick Baudé October 11, 2007 09:22PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 13, 2007 11:39AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Greg Reeder October 13, 2007 11:51AM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

Roxana Cooper October 13, 2007 11:58AM

An honest answer to Greg....

darkuser October 14, 2007 06:27PM

Re: An honest answer to Greg....

Roxana Cooper October 15, 2007 09:51AM

Re: An honest answer to Greg....

Doug October 16, 2007 05:41AM

Re: An honest answer to Greg....

Roxana Cooper October 16, 2007 10:01AM

Re: An honest answer to Greg....

Doug October 16, 2007 07:40PM

Re: A lie is a lie is a lie and still will be a lie

clem ciamarra October 07, 2007 05:57PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 08, 2007 09:06PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 09, 2007 11:34AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 09, 2007 04:23PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 09, 2007 06:49PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 09, 2007 06:43PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Warwick L Nixon October 09, 2007 09:55PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 10, 2007 05:09AM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 10, 2007 06:39AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 10, 2007 07:32AM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 10, 2007 09:31AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 10, 2007 07:45PM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 11, 2007 06:00AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 11, 2007 07:27AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 11, 2007 09:54AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 11, 2007 06:26PM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 11, 2007 06:45PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Jammer October 12, 2007 07:30AM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 12, 2007 09:06AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 12, 2007 09:29AM

Re: Elements of A lie

fmetrol October 12, 2007 05:41PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 14, 2007 07:37PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Jammer October 16, 2007 09:50AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 11, 2007 06:51PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 11, 2007 07:39PM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 11, 2007 11:27PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 12, 2007 04:22AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 12, 2007 08:02AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Greg Reeder October 12, 2007 08:31AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 12, 2007 08:47AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 12, 2007 09:30AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 12, 2007 09:59AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 13, 2007 11:46AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 14, 2007 08:41PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 15, 2007 09:55AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 15, 2007 09:44PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 16, 2007 02:15PM

The Big Lie!

Greg Reeder October 16, 2007 11:39PM

Re: The Big Lie!

Khazar-khum October 17, 2007 01:50AM

Re: The Big Lie!

Doug October 17, 2007 08:50AM

Re: The Big Lie!

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 11:37AM

Re: The Big Lie!

Hermione October 17, 2007 03:46AM

Re: The Big Lie!

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 11:34AM

Note

Hermione October 17, 2007 01:58PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 08:05AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 11:38AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 12:45PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 02:20PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 04:34PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug Weller October 18, 2007 04:57AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 18, 2007 07:32AM

Re: Elements of A lie

bernard October 10, 2007 11:40AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 10, 2007 10:04AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug M October 10, 2007 08:27PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 11, 2007 09:59AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Greg Reeder October 11, 2007 10:23AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 11, 2007 06:37PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 11, 2007 07:33PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 11, 2007 07:52PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 12, 2007 12:46AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 12, 2007 04:36AM

Note to sub-thread

Hermione October 12, 2007 06:28AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 12, 2007 01:32PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 13, 2007 09:30AM

Closure of sub-thread

Hermione October 13, 2007 09:57AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 14, 2007 07:34PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Reece October 14, 2007 07:41PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 14, 2007 08:17PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 14, 2007 10:20PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 15, 2007 06:20AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 15, 2007 01:20PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 15, 2007 09:22PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 16, 2007 02:16PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 16, 2007 02:48PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 17, 2007 02:02AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 17, 2007 04:26AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 11:39AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 15, 2007 01:33PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 15, 2007 03:38PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 15, 2007 03:44PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 16, 2007 02:17PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 15, 2007 03:39PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 17, 2007 04:42AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 18, 2007 03:53PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 15, 2007 09:59AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 16, 2007 05:26AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 16, 2007 02:21PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 16, 2007 11:42PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 17, 2007 02:00AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 08:24AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 11:45AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 04:07PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 04:43PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 17, 2007 07:05PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 18, 2007 12:38AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 18, 2007 05:43AM

Re: Elements of A lie

bernard October 18, 2007 09:59AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 18, 2007 08:39PM

Re: Elements of A lie

bernard October 18, 2007 09:33PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 19, 2007 12:06AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 18, 2007 09:49AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 18, 2007 08:50PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 18, 2007 11:50PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 21, 2007 09:46PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 22, 2007 03:38AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 22, 2007 04:36AM

Sub-thread closed

Hermione October 22, 2007 07:28AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 18, 2007 03:57PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 18, 2007 09:04PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 18, 2007 11:52PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Doug October 21, 2007 09:53PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Khazar-khum October 22, 2007 04:31AM

Sub-thread closed

Hermione October 22, 2007 07:30AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 19, 2007 11:24AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 10, 2007 01:50PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Greg Reeder October 10, 2007 02:38PM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 10, 2007 06:48PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 11, 2007 08:36AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Greg Reeder October 11, 2007 10:01AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 11, 2007 11:43AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 11, 2007 04:53PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 13, 2007 09:35AM

Re: Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 25, 2007 05:06AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 26, 2007 12:35PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 26, 2007 08:29PM

Note

Hermione October 27, 2007 05:16AM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 27, 2007 01:45PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

Anthony October 27, 2007 02:38PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 28, 2007 04:18PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 28, 2007 09:23PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 30, 2007 04:53PM

Re: r bauval? Elements of A lie

clem ciamarra October 31, 2007 09:41AM

**Moderation note - sub-thread closed**

Hermione October 31, 2007 11:07AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Warwick L Nixon October 13, 2007 12:33PM

Re: Elements of A lie

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 14, 2007 09:18AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Roxana Cooper October 14, 2007 10:25AM

Re: Elements of A lie

Warwick L Nixon October 14, 2007 01:06PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Byrd October 07, 2007 09:07PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Doug October 14, 2007 07:48PM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Lee October 09, 2007 09:41AM

Re: Hawass- ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it

Khazar-khum October 09, 2007 04:44PM



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