Pacal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You say:
>
Quote:are mythical (i.e. no INTENDED istorical
> basis). The characters in the NT and OT are
> present to support a subjective creation story.
> Literalism won't help us understand our ancestors
> or their beliefs (i.e. by nature, SUBjective).
>
> This statement is at least particially false.

***
I think we're having a misunderstanding based on definition of terms (wholly my fault).

For example, I think we would all agree that "God" (Lord, El, Elohim, Jesus) is the main topic of the bible. So, in Genesis we have God creating the earth, humans, etc. The way God is described in the bible is also used THROUGHOUT the Bible. So, in a passage that seems to telling some mundane story, might (probability) actually be CONTINUING to describe the creator (God) over and over and over and over again.

When I say "creation story", I don't mean an acute (Genesis 1) "creation event" but rather the IDENTITY of the purported creator (using symbolism) is used over and over and over in the bible specifically whenever the "Lord" is nearby (in the text/story/context).


>
> After all lets see.
>
> 1, Are all the books of the Prophets, including
> their doings "Creation Stories"?

***
See above definition. I'd prefer it worded "do the minor/major prophet-related books in the bible ALSO show the identity (belief) of who "God" was? Decidedly yes.


Jer 23:29
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?


Ezekiel 1:13
As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.


Daniel 7:9
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Isaiah 30:30
And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.


Joel 2:30
For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire


Obadiah 1:3
The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?


Nahum 1:6
Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide F2 in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.


Micah 1:4
And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.


>
> 2, The descriptions of the doings in the 1 and 2nd
> Kings (3 & 4th Kings if your Catholic)
> "Creation Stories"?

***
1 Kings 11-12
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: 12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.


2 Kings 1:14
Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and burnt up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties: therefore let my life now be precious in thy sight



>
> 3, The Holiness code a "Creation Story"?

***
Lots of "fire unto the Lord" but a little nebulous.


>
> 4, The books of Job,Psalms, Wisdom, Proverbs,
> Ecclesiasticus, Ecclesiastes, Ruth "Creation
> Stories"?

***
Psalm 18:13
The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.


Job 1:16
While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire F7 of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.


Wisdom 16:16
For the ungodly, that denied to know thee, were scourged by the strength of thine arm: with strange rains, hails, and showers, were they persecuted, that they could not avoid, and through fire were they consumed.


>
> 5, And What about the book of Acts, and the
> Letters of the New Testament, to say nothing of
> the book of Revelation?

***
Revelation is the biggie:

Re 1:14 - Show Context
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

Re 2:18 - Show Context
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Re 3:18 - Show Context
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Re 4:5 - Show Context
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Re 8:5 - Show Context
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Re 8:7 - Show Context
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Re 8:8 - Show Context
And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Re 9:17 - Show Context
And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

Re 9:18 - Show Context
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

Re 10:1 - Show Context
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

Re 11:5 - Show Context
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Re 13:13 - Show Context
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Re 14:10 - Show Context
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Re 14:18 - Show Context
And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Re 15:2 - Show Context
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Re 16:8 - Show Context
And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Re 17:16 - Show Context
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Re 18:8 - Show Context
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Re 19:12 - Show Context
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Re 19:20 - Show Context
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Re 20:9 - Show Context
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Re 20:10 - Show Context
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Re 20:14 - Show Context
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Re 20:15 - Show Context
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Re 21:8 - Show Context
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Acts 2:19
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:


1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


>
> I could go on but the point is twisting and shoe
> horning the entire Bible to fit the preconcieved
> idea that its all a symbolic "Creation Story" is
> rather extreme.

***
It's not preconceived. How could ANYONE guess or even think the whole of the bible (i.e. the identity of God) would be spread THROUGHOUT the bible (rather than Genesis or the more obvious parts)?


>
> Of course I could also mention that the "symbolic"
> approach as yielded over the centuries a huge
> bumber crop of mutually contradictory, nonsensical
> readings of the real "meaning" of the Bible.

***
This symbolic interpretation is rigid and consists of elements/attributes that follow a distinct pattern.


>
> As for literalism. A strawman of your creation,
> very few if any modern Biblical scholar takes
> seriously that the sun stood still for Joshua, or
> that Elijah actually had God send bears to tear
> apart some children who mocked his baldness.

***
Understood. I'm saying that even literalist interpretations of the Exodus will reveal nothing useful.


>
> The idea that the Bible contains esoteric wisdom
> etc., that is being communicated through symbolic
> code is of course an assumption, that those who
> present it fail to provide evidence of.

***
The only way you can provide "evidence" of said symbolism is from circumstantial evidence.

Use crosswalk (bible search) and see for yourself.


Of course
> it remarkable that the interpreters of this "code"
> contradict each other.

***
Not when they're talking of "God". That's the amazing part. When someone here posted [www.earlychristianwritings.com] which I'd never seen before, I fully expected to see the SAME imagery found in the bible. Lo and behold, see my sig. line as ONE example amongst many different writings.

JL


>
> Pierre
>
>




Shephard of Hermas - 2[79]:2 Now this rock was ancient, and had a gate hewn out of it; but the gate seemed to me to have been hewed out quite recently. And the gate glistened beyond the brightness of the sun, so that I marvelled at the brightness of the gate.