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May 19, 2024, 11:03 am UTC    
January 24, 2006 03:19PM
Against which you can usefully compare the following (although, of course, they're not writing in response to Alford) ...


Kenneth A. Kitchen (2003):

"[...] [The] ancient Near East did not historicize myth (ie., read it as an imaginary 'history'). In fact, exactly the reverse is true - there was, rather, a trend to 'mythologize' history, to celebrate actual historical events and people in mythological terms. Compare the growth of legends about 'Sesostris' or about the Hyksos kings in Egypt; the growth of traditions about Sargon of Akkad; or the divinization of Dumuzi in Mesopotamia, among others [1]" (p. 262).



[1] On the fallacy of historization of myth versus the mythical expression of history, cf. long ago Kitchen, Ancient Orient and Old Testament (1966; reprint, 2000), 89 and n. 7.



James K. Hoffmeier (1997):

"Working on the mistaken assumption that the sea was called sop, 'Sea of the End', Snaith believed that creation-myth language associated with defeating a sea monster was used in the 'Song of the Sea' (Exod. 15:1-21). Batto expanded on Snaith, opining that 'Such mythological motifs account rather patently for the presence of yam (Sea dragon) in the poem' and that 'earth' in 15:7 really stood for 'the Underworld'. For Batto, and Ahlstrom, the mythological nature of this poem renders the events described therein as 'historicized'. The mythic language contributes to Ahlstrom's radical conclusion that the exodus material is 'fictional historiography' and 'is definitely not one of empirical history'.

"Several critical observations are in order. First, the poetic or hymnic description of the sea passage of Exodus 15 does not disagree with the main points of the narrative version in Exodus 14:21 to 31 despite the apparent presence of mythological terms. Second, when Hebrew writers elsewhere used mythic allusions or language, it applied to specific historical realities. For instance, both Isaiah 30:7 and Ezekiel 29:3 liken the Saite Pharaoh and his might to Rahab and Tannim [1].

"The setting of Isaiah's oracle is thought to be Sennacherib's invasion of Judah in 701 BC and the Twenty-fifth Dynasty's attempt to intervene by sending Tirhaka (Taharka) to engage the Assyrians, or in response to Hoshea of Samaria's appeal to Egypt prior to the northern kingdom's demise in 722 BC. In either case, Isaiah attaches the mythological Rahab, whom Yahweh had defeated at creation, to a weak Pharaoh of the Third Intermediate Period who could not withstand the power of Assyria. Ezekiel uses the 'great Tannim' (as in Gen. 1:21) in much the same way as Isaiah did with Rahab. The historical context of this oracle is 586 BC, the time of Jerusalem's destruction at the hand of Chaldeans [2]. Once again, an appeal to Pharaoh's help was made (Ezek. 17:15), and Apries (Hophra) offered a feeble response (Jer. 37:5, 44:30; Ezek. 30:20-25) [3].

"These two examples demonstrate that the Hebrew writers could use mythic language and images to depict specific historic situations. Evidently, the use of this type of language in the Hebrew scribal tradition in no way detracted from the historicity of the events being discussed. Interestingly, Ahlstrom in his monumental, posthomously published History of Ancient Palestine mentions the fall of Jerusalem and Apries's role in trying to assist Judah, stating, 'the Egyptian army was of no help'. This is precisely the point of Ezekiel's application of Canaanite mythological symbols to Pharaoh Hophra and Egypt's military frailty at the end of the sixth-century BC. Clearly in this case Ahlstrom did not reject the historic value of a text because it utilized mythic terminology regarding Pharaoh. I maintain the same is true of Exodus 15. There may be mythological images used in the 'Song of the Sea', but that should not automatically render its content unhistorical. Rather, mythic language was a tool in ancient Israel's historiographical repertoire.

"Another line of mythological investigation of the exodus sea event has concerned Egyptian, as compared with Canaanite or Mesopotamian, sources. It is suggested that the 'Sea of Reeds' (s i3rw) or 'Field of Reeds' (sht i3rw), which are closely related in Egyptian funerary texts, stand behind the Hebrew yam sup. Towers points to the Coptic B version where yam sup is normally translated as pyom n sa(i)ri, 'Sea of Reeds'. In Exodus 15:22 and 23:31, the variant translation pyom n h3h occurs in Coptic B, which Towers believed to be the writing for Egyptian s n h3 or h3h3. In the Pyramid Texts, these two lakes are found in parallelism, which suggests to Towers [1959] that it was an obviousy synonym for pyom n sa(i)ri. The deceased, in Egyptian funerary literature, would pass through the lake or marsh and be purified in its waters before ascending to new life in the realm of Re or Osiris. Towers and others associate the regeneration of the Egyptian dead with the Israelites' passage through the 'Sea of Reeds' where they were born as a nation.

"My response to the theorized Canaanite and Mesopotamian mythological influence on the passage through the sea accounts apply as well to an Egyptian theological perspective. A mythological connection is an intriguing possibility, especially in light of the Coptic B variants, but that could represent a Coptic or Egyptian scribal interpolation. The Hebrews may well have attached such symbolic national-birth motifs to the exodus story, and in the process employed various Near Eastern mythological images and terminology, which it did with reference to historical reality, not concocted events" (pp. 213-214).



[1] Based on his book Slaying the Dragon: Mythmaking in the Biblical Tradition [1992], it is clear that Batto realized that the biblical writers could use mythic images and language to describe real historical situations. See his treatment of Ezekiel 29. In chapter 6, 'Egypt and Gog as Mythic Symbols in Ezekiel', (cf. 163-166). In his JBL article, however, Batto dismissed the historicity of the sea crossing because of the presence of mythic language. He thus displays an inconsistent method of interpreting mythic material in the OT.

[2] Ezekiel 29:3 precisely dates the oracle to 'the tenth year the tenth month'. Concerning the accuracy of Ezekiel's dates, see K.S. Freedy and D.B. Redford, "The Dates in Ezekiel in Relation to Biblical, Babylonian and Egyptian SourceS", JAOS 90 (1970) 462-485.

[3] Anthony Spalinger believes that only a "small relief army" was dispatched to Judah [...].
Subject Author Posted

King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Andrew Earl Singer January 23, 2006 08:25AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

John Wall January 23, 2006 08:28AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Ritva Kurittu January 23, 2006 08:35AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Amanda R January 23, 2006 10:05AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Ritva Kurittu January 23, 2006 10:27AM

like searching for ...

Warwick L Nixon January 23, 2006 10:43AM

Re: like searching for ...

Ritva Kurittu January 23, 2006 11:06AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Gerd VDC January 23, 2006 10:39AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Andrew Earl Singer January 23, 2006 07:44PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Gerd VDC January 24, 2006 03:00AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Andrew Earl Singer January 24, 2006 08:17AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Pete Clarke January 24, 2006 08:39AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Gerd VDC January 24, 2006 09:38AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Anthony January 24, 2006 11:46AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Anthony January 24, 2006 08:54AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Anthony January 23, 2006 11:48AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Greg Reeder January 23, 2006 11:12AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Ritva Kurittu January 23, 2006 11:31AM

virtually all biblical characters

JimLewandowski January 23, 2006 11:52AM

Re: virtually all biblical characters

Roxana January 23, 2006 12:32PM

it's LOGICAL

JimLewandowski January 23, 2006 12:55PM

Re: it's LOGICAL

Roxana January 23, 2006 01:50PM

Re: it's LOGICAL

JimLewandowski January 23, 2006 02:53PM

Re: it's LOGICAL

Roxana January 23, 2006 03:36PM

are you sure??

JimLewandowski January 23, 2006 03:49PM

Re: are you sure??

Damian Walter January 23, 2006 04:34PM

Re: are you sure??

JimLewandowski January 23, 2006 04:39PM

Re: are you sure??

Damian Walter January 24, 2006 04:49AM

Re: are you sure??

Roxana January 24, 2006 12:43PM

Re: are you sure??

Damian Walter January 24, 2006 02:46PM

Waters are PRIMARY to the creation event

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 02:51PM

further

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 02:57PM

Re: are you sure??

Damian Walter January 24, 2006 03:19PM

Re: are you sure??

Warwick L Nixon January 24, 2006 12:51PM

Re: are you sure??

Lee January 24, 2006 01:28PM

Re: are you sure??

Warwick L Nixon January 24, 2006 01:43PM

Re: are you sure??

Lee January 24, 2006 02:13PM

Re: are you sure??

Roxana January 24, 2006 03:27PM

Re: are you sure??

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 03:39PM

Re: are you sure??

Lee January 25, 2006 10:56AM

Re: are you sure??

Roxana January 25, 2006 03:13PM

no implying of any kind

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 02:36PM

Re: no implying of any kind

Warwick L Nixon January 24, 2006 02:49PM

Re: no implying of any kind

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 02:54PM

Re: no implying of any kind

Warwick L Nixon January 24, 2006 03:03PM

Re: it's LOGICAL

Damian Walter January 23, 2006 01:54PM

Re: it's LOGICAL

JimLewandowski January 23, 2006 03:04PM

Re: it's LOGICAL

Damian Walter January 23, 2006 04:19PM

Re: it's LOGICAL

JimLewandowski January 23, 2006 04:31PM

Re: it's LOGICAL

Roxana January 23, 2006 03:32PM

Remember, the REASON for religion/religious writings

JimLewandowski January 23, 2006 03:50PM

Re: Remember, the REASON for religion/religious writings

Damian Walter January 23, 2006 04:24PM

Re: Remember, the REASON for religion/religious writings

JimLewandowski January 23, 2006 04:35PM

Re: Remember, the REASON for religion/religious writings

Roxana January 24, 2006 12:46PM

Re: Remember, the REASON for religion/religious writings

Warwick L Nixon January 24, 2006 12:52PM

Re: Remember, the REASON for religion/religious writings

Roxana January 24, 2006 03:48PM

We're dealing with probabilities, not possibilities

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 02:49PM

Re: We're dealing with probabilities, not possibilities

Damian Walter January 24, 2006 03:26PM

I have no opinion nor interest in what you've posted

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 03:44PM

LOL! n/t

Damian Walter January 24, 2006 03:49PM

Your point doesn't address the original subject

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 03:58PM

What can I say?

Damian Walter January 24, 2006 04:04PM

example biblical text

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 04:14PM

Question on this biblical text

Anthony January 24, 2006 04:17PM

It doesn't matter

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 06:19PM

Re: It doesn't matter

Anthony January 24, 2006 09:34PM

Re: It doesn't matter

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 11:00PM

Re: It doesn't matter

Roxana Cooper January 25, 2006 10:57AM

Re: It doesn't matter

Warwick L Nixon January 25, 2006 11:12AM

you still seem to be evading the issue of the identity of God

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 11:21AM

Re: you still seem to be evading the issue of the identity of God

Warwick L Nixon January 25, 2006 11:35AM

Re: you still seem to be evading the issue of the identity of God

Roxana January 25, 2006 12:43PM

Re: you still seem to be evading the issue of the identity of God

John Wall January 25, 2006 01:12PM

From experience, using the term exploded planet

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 03:22PM

Re: you still seem to be evading the issue of the identity of God

Tommi Huhtamaki January 25, 2006 01:15PM

Pffffft....

Anthony January 25, 2006 01:24PM

Re: Pffffft....

Tommi Huhtamaki January 25, 2006 01:34PM

Jerry Goldsmith

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 01:54PM

Re: Question on this biblical text

Lee January 26, 2006 02:59PM

Re: I have no opinion nor interest in what you've posted

Roxana January 24, 2006 03:50PM

the facts are the least important elements of the book

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 12:18AM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

lobo-hotei January 25, 2006 12:52AM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 01:17AM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

lobo-hotei January 25, 2006 01:55AM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

Roxana Cooper January 25, 2006 11:11AM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 11:27AM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

Warwick L Nixon January 25, 2006 11:32AM

and I've been 100% honest about that

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 01:28PM

Re: and I've been 100% honest about that

Warwick L Nixon January 25, 2006 01:40PM

I have no interest in fiction

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 01:56PM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

lobo-hotei January 25, 2006 11:49AM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

Roxana January 25, 2006 12:50PM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

lobo-hotei January 25, 2006 01:02PM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

Roxana January 25, 2006 03:21PM

I'm so bad at directions I have to orient the map

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 03:32PM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 01:33PM

Re: the facts are the least important elements of the book

Roxana January 25, 2006 12:47PM

You're getting closer

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 03:31PM

Re: virtually all biblical characters

Pacal January 24, 2006 05:54PM

defining creation story

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 08:24PM

Re: defining creation story

Pacal January 25, 2006 04:12PM

Re: defining creation story

JimLewandowski January 25, 2006 04:26PM

Re: defining creation story

Pacal January 26, 2006 07:42PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Roxana January 23, 2006 12:28PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Andrew Earl Singer January 23, 2006 03:56PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

John Wall January 23, 2006 04:13PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Ritva Kurittu January 23, 2006 04:17PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Rick B January 23, 2006 11:12PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Marduk January 24, 2006 12:41AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Damian Walter January 24, 2006 08:11AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Marduk January 24, 2006 08:35AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

John Wall January 24, 2006 08:37AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Marduk January 24, 2006 10:23AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

John Wall January 24, 2006 12:18PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Marduk January 24, 2006 12:34PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Damian Walter January 24, 2006 09:32AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Marduk January 24, 2006 09:44AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Damian Walter January 24, 2006 10:05AM

Moderator Note

Katherine Reece January 24, 2006 11:35AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Marduk January 24, 2006 12:37PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Damian Walter January 24, 2006 12:42PM

touche'

Warwick L Nixon January 24, 2006 12:45PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Marduk January 24, 2006 12:53PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Warwick L Nixon January 24, 2006 12:57PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Marduk January 24, 2006 01:03PM

Mod note~~

lobo-hotei January 24, 2006 01:11PM

Re: Mod note~~

Marduk January 24, 2006 01:31PM

Correct. Literalism seems to have paid virtually NO

JimLewandowski January 24, 2006 10:06AM

Re: Correct. Literalism seems to have paid virtually NO

Pacal January 29, 2006 06:53PM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Hermione January 24, 2006 11:44AM

Re: King Tutankhamen, Queen Ankhesenamen and Moses

Damian Walter January 24, 2006 12:44PM



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