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May 5, 2024, 6:45 am UTC    
December 14, 2004 11:23PM
Sophie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You'll have to provide other evidence of this
> "deeply held view," Bernard, because the teachings
> of Joachim de Fiore were soon repudiated by the
> church, by the Lateran Council and following, and
> demolished by Thomas Aquinas.

Be that as it may. What I know is the millenarian vision of Fiore was revived and was the driving force behind the evangelizing efforts of the Franciscans in the New World. The idea was that (1)the Indians were the Lost Tribes of Israel (2) that. if they were converted, they together with the Franciscans could set up the “New Jerusalem” and (3) bring about the Second coming. This is clearly set out in John l. Phelan. 1972. The Millenarian Kingdom of the Fransicans in the New World and also in a book I translated G. Baudot. 1995. Utopia and History in Mexico. Trans. B.R. Ortiz de Montellano and T. Ortiz de Montellano. Boulder: University Press of Colorado.
A quote from the latter:

pp. 80-85 In spite of these reverses, the tradition of the "spirituals" persisted, but in a purified and reorganized fashion in several orthodox movements which returned to the original observance of the rules in 1334. Thus, under the direction of Colette de Corbin and Bernard of Siena, this "observant" movement triumphed in the fifteenth century, and in 1517, Leon X, in the bull Ite vos in vineam meam, clearly separated the "observants" from the "conventuals," but kept them within the same order. From then on, the "observants" who represented a continual pressure for reform by a segment of the Franciscan family, emerged in several later reforms, as the heirs of Joachinist hopes, after the disappearance of the "spirituals" in the preceding century.
Spain at the end of the Middle Ages was one of the areas where the ideals of the "observants" often prevailed and exercised considerable influence.
Cardinal Ximénez de Cisneros, the most illustrious of the "observants" is well-known, as is also the exceptional role he played in the affairs of the kingdom. Cisneros, at the request of Isabella I, undertook a reform of the regular clergy that embodied the purest concepts of that faction of the Franciscan family. The convents were closed, the ideal of apostolic poverty was given a boost, and the apocalyptic interpretation of history was ratified. In fact, with the discovery of America those ideas would gain an extraordinary revitalization, which explains the impact of the appearance of a New World on medieval cosmography. Later, we will examine that aspect, since the discovery of the New World. and, above all, of the pre-Columbian civilizations, forced the millenarians to integrate those events into a new apocalyptic perspective. The particular situation of the Franciscans in Spain, at the time of the American discoveries, requires further study, since it is revealing in several ways.
During the years in which Columbus' enterprise was being planned and had its beginning, an important reform was underway in the Franciscan organization in Spain. As the inheritor of many of the ideas of the above mentioned Franciscan factions, it was important as the spiritual cradle of the Mexican chroniclers that interest us. A brief history follows.
The reform was the work of an "observant," Father Juan de Guadalupe who, like many others, dreamed of returning to the unadulterated Franciscan origin. Taking advantage of the General Chapter meeting in Toulouse, in 1496, Guadalupe went to Rome and got the bull Sacrosanctae Militantis Ecclesiae from Pope Alexander VI which set forth the principles of an authentic return to the most absolute Franciscan ideals, and authorized for that purpose the founding an experimental house in Granada.
. . .
Returning to Rome, Guadalupe again obtained a bull, Super familiam Domus Dei from Alexander VI, on July, 1499, which confirmed and expanded the earlier arrangements. From that time on, Guadalupe-type establishments began to be set up. By 1500, five monasteries belonged to the movement: Alconchel, Trujillo, Salvaleón, and Villanueva del Fresno in Extremadura and Villaviciosa in Portugal. After several controversies, some of them serious, with the Province of Santiago, to which Extremadura belonged, and which saw Guadalupe's reform prosper at its expense, it was finally securely established, after the death of its founder in 1505. At first, it was named the Custody of the Holy Gospel of Extremadura (a name the Franciscans, when they became established in Mexico, would also use in order to emphasize their spiritual allegiance), and afterwards the Custody of San Gabriel, in 1517, and finally the independent Province of San Gabriel, in 1519. The triumph of Guadalupe's reform and of Cortés's landing on the Mexican coast took place the same year.
It is impossible to emphasize the importance of this enough, if we are to thoroughly know the concerns and spiritual objectives of the first missionaries in Mexico. Besides the fact that the vast majority of them came from San Gabriel, the ambition that motivated the bold enterprise of the ethnographic chroniclers was clearly the result of the ambitions and dreams of the reformed custody.
We have seen that the creation of the latter was based on a return to the extremist traditions held by the visionary "spirituals," which revived the apocalyptic views of Joachinism. Historical events supported this view marvelously. It should be remembered that Guadalupe's reform began four years after the discovery of America and was definitely established the same year as the beginning of the conquest of Mexico. There is no doubt that, in the view of the Joachinists, this perfect synchrony was not just due to chance. We cannot flatly assert that the reformist impulse that impelled Guadalupe in 1496 was the result of an eschatological reflection, provoked by the incredible news of the discovery of America four years before, but we cannot either lightly dismiss the impact of that event on the reappearance of Joachinism in Spain at the beginning of the century; in fact, in all of Europe. Wasn't it in 1519, that Fiore's principal work, the Liber Concordia Novi ac Veteris Testamenti, was republished and distributed beyond the usual circles that normally thought and studied it?

The fact is that the Joachinist perspective provided a satisfactory explanation, which was considered indispensable by those Christians who were concerned and astounded by the disconcerting discoveries (new civilizations and new human beings) that the new Atlantic route had brought. Thus, in renewing the tradition of the "spirituals" and the accompanying Joachinist ideology, Guadalupe tried to alert a determined and dynamic group of his fellow Franciscans of a possibly extraordinary epoch. It gave his followers the opportunity to play a decisive role in the final ordering of humanity, which the Gospel had prophesied, and which the history of his time projected. Actually history presented euphoric events, if they were interpreted as being so many revelations of the design of Providence, and if one wished to read into them the symbolic texts and the cryptograms of the Scriptures. The coincidence of the Americanist vocation, which was very quickly announced by the Custody of San Gabriel, and the interest of its members in carrying out the Joachinist interpretation, is not surprising. It cannot be denied that those two lines of action developed a in parallel form until they became two components of the same program, which was implicitly admitted by the Franciscans of San Gabriel. In them we can recognize the premises of the ethnographic chroniclers of pre-Columbian life. An obsession for the supernatural destiny of mankind at the same time explains the inseparable mixture of the two of them. The wish to play an active role in the fulfillment of eschatological prophecies around 1496-1522, meant that action in the American colonial empire became a priority, and, at the same time, placed it in a re-interpretation of the Gospel, which would fulfill Fiore's ideas. In this way, the most dynamic group of the Franciscans, whom Guadalupe's providential reform had specifically prepared for the task through a return to evangelical poverty, had a clear vision of their mission: first, to convert the Indians, those last gentiles hidden until then by the impenetrable divine will, and whose appearance was a clear sign of the proximity of the end time, and afterwards, to explain their origin, their existence and their destiny in the light of the Gospel.
There were two tasks, one as urgent as the other, within the perspectives of the preparation for the approaching arrival of the Millennium. The fulfillment of the promises of the Apocalypse depended on the conversion of the Indians, but there was still a need to tie the latter, in one way or another, to Adam's descendants and with the peoples of the Old Testament. . . . . .
The definite apocalyptic meaning given to the evangelizing mission and the conviction of living in the prelude to the end time, of being on the eve of the reign of the Holy Spirit promised by Fiore as an prelude to the Millennium should be stressed, "... In the last age of the world...". . .
The different elements that made up the profile of the future apostle of Mexico were coherent and clearly had a real identification with a prophetic spirituality, impregnated with the eschatological views of millenarian Joachinism.
. . .
There is no doubt that the men chosen by los Angeles and Valencia to make up the first group of missionaries to face the unknown in Mexico had been selected because of their belief in the views of their guardians and because they shared the same hopes about the ultimate significance of their enterprise. Two of the first chosen, Fray Toribio de Benavente and Fray Martín de la Coruña, who later participated in the ethnographic inquiries about the native civilizations, were clearly oriented in those directions. It also appears that subsequent missionaries chosen were also believers in Guadalupism and were fervent followers of San Gabriel, and this was done long enough to maintain and make the particular ethos of the Mexican mission irreversible.
This is one of the best reasons for the very special tenor of the evangelization of the Mexican territories by the Franciscans between 1524 and 1564. We know today, as the result of several revisionist studies in the last few years, that the Franciscans of Mexico planned their actions in the New World according to a Joachinist inspired millenarian program. The very characteristics of that New World which was surprising, as much for its unexpected geographical location as for its strange peoples, were of such a providential nature that they inspired a belief that the Joachinist prophecies had begun to be realized, in 1524, with the arrival in Mexico of the twelve reformed Franciscans. The Franciscans of New Spain themselves tell of this in their texts. Between 1585 and 1596, Mendieta, a late disciple of San Gabriel and an attentive follower of Motolinía in analyzing the goals sought in the first years of the odyssey of the conversion of the Mesoamerican peoples, gave the clearest written version of this program of action. Reading the available correspondence of Mendieta, and his Historia eclesiastica indiana, as well as Motolinia's Historia, one learns of the broad design conceived and put into action to achieve the dreams of Joachinism during the period in which the Franciscans had a monopoly on the future of Mexico. Thus we find that the Franciscans were pleasantly surprised at the malleability of their native catechumens, and by the promise such an attitude implied, "... the mass of Indians were prepared to be the purest Christians and the best behaved in the whole world..."
. . .


Bernard

Subject Author Posted

What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

imorf December 13, 2004 11:48PM

Greatest human setbacks 1 & 2.

kenuchelover December 14, 2004 12:49AM

Re: Greatest human setbacks 1 & 2.

marduk December 14, 2004 01:20AM

Re: Greatest human setbacks 1 & 2.

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 08:43AM

Re: Greatest human setbacks 1 & 2.

imorf December 14, 2004 01:31AM

Re: Greatest human setbacks 1 & 2.

kenuchelover December 14, 2004 02:39AM

Speaking of toilets & history....

kenuchelover December 14, 2004 02:47AM

Re: Speaking of toilets & history....

Cynnara December 14, 2004 03:16AM

Re: Speaking of toilets & history....

kenuchelover December 14, 2004 05:05AM

I can sum this up in three words...

DoveArrow December 14, 2004 10:39AM

Re: Greatest human setbacks 1 & 2.

darkuser December 14, 2004 09:44PM

Re: Greatest human setbacks 1 & 2.

John Wall December 15, 2004 04:01AM

Re: Greatest human setbacks 1 & 2.

darkuser December 15, 2004 06:18AM

Re: Greatest human setbacks 1 & 2.

John Wall December 15, 2004 06:22AM

Re: Greatest human setbacks 1 & 2.

darkuser December 15, 2004 07:05AM

Re: Greatest human setbacks 1 & 2.

John Wall December 15, 2004 07:42AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 14, 2004 04:15AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

kenuchelover December 14, 2004 04:51AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 14, 2004 05:16AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Anthony December 14, 2004 05:25AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 14, 2004 06:17AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Robert LaFrance December 14, 2004 08:31AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 14, 2004 08:45AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 09:10AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 14, 2004 09:26AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 09:37AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 14, 2004 10:10AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 10:22AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 14, 2004 10:34AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 10:40AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

kenuchelover December 14, 2004 01:21PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 15, 2004 04:14AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

kenuchelover December 14, 2004 12:50PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

sdelaney December 14, 2004 02:33PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Simon December 14, 2004 09:36AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 09:47AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Simon December 14, 2004 09:52AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 10:11AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Simon December 14, 2004 10:22AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 10:39AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Simon December 14, 2004 11:29AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 12:12PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Simon December 14, 2004 01:07PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 02:39PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

sdelaney December 14, 2004 11:39AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 12:29PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

sdelaney December 14, 2004 02:21PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 03:07PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

wirelessguru1 December 14, 2004 03:14PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

sdelaney December 14, 2004 03:48PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setbac k in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 06:02PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setbac k in history?

sdelaney December 15, 2004 02:50PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setbac k in history?

Joanne December 15, 2004 06:42PM

Mmmm - very strange..

Simon December 14, 2004 04:46PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

bernard December 14, 2004 05:18PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Anonymous User December 14, 2004 05:34PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Joanne December 14, 2004 06:26PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Anonymous User December 14, 2004 06:36PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Joanne December 14, 2004 06:42PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Anonymous User December 14, 2004 06:55PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Joanne December 14, 2004 07:18PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Anonymous User December 14, 2004 07:48PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Simon December 14, 2004 06:41PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Joanne December 14, 2004 06:45PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Simon December 14, 2004 06:55PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Joanne December 14, 2004 07:12PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

bernard December 14, 2004 11:23PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Anonymous User December 14, 2004 11:59PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

bernard December 15, 2004 12:25AM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Anonymous User December 15, 2004 12:54AM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Joanne December 15, 2004 12:05PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Joanne December 15, 2004 12:02PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Anonymous User December 15, 2004 02:26PM

Re: Mmmm - very strange..

Simon December 14, 2004 05:38PM

When Is [The] Messiah Coming?

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 05:57PM

On the other hand...

Anthony December 14, 2004 06:20PM

Re: On the other hand...

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 06:29PM

Re: On the other hand...

Joanne December 14, 2004 06:33PM

Re: On the other hand...

John Wall December 14, 2004 06:35PM

Re: On the other hand...

Joanne December 14, 2004 06:37PM

Re: On the other hand...

John Wall December 14, 2004 06:38PM

Re: On the other hand...

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 06:42PM

Re: On the other hand...

John Wall December 14, 2004 06:54PM

Re: On the other hand...

Joanne December 14, 2004 07:03PM

Re: On the other hand...

John Wall December 14, 2004 07:13PM

Re: On the other hand...

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 06:39PM

Re: On the other hand...

John Wall December 14, 2004 06:41PM

Re: When Is [The] Messiah Coming?

Simon December 14, 2004 06:32PM

Re: When Is [The] Messiah Coming?

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 06:36PM

Re: When Is [The] Messiah Coming?

Simon December 14, 2004 07:04PM

Very true Simon

Katherine Reece December 14, 2004 07:09PM

Re: Very true Simon

Simon December 14, 2004 07:52PM

Re: When Is [The] Messiah Coming?

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 07:31PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Stephanie December 14, 2004 10:34PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

DietseSietse December 16, 2004 06:24AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

DietseSietse December 16, 2004 05:46AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Robert LaFrance December 14, 2004 01:06PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 15, 2004 08:40AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Anthony December 14, 2004 10:25AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Anonymous User December 14, 2004 12:35PM

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 01:30PM

UD

Anthony December 14, 2004 06:59PM

Re: UD

Anonymous User December 14, 2004 08:41PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Hans December 14, 2004 08:02AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

kenuchelover December 16, 2004 05:20AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 16, 2004 05:47AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pacal December 14, 2004 06:24PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Simon December 14, 2004 08:37AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

bill barrington December 14, 2004 09:24AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 11:50AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Katherine Reece December 14, 2004 11:54AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 12:14PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Katherine Reece December 14, 2004 12:20PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 11:55AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

mstower December 14, 2004 01:38PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Roxana December 14, 2004 03:48PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 06:23PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 06:30PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

DougWeller December 15, 2004 01:11AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Ahatmose December 15, 2004 10:28AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 15, 2004 10:38AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Ahatmose December 15, 2004 10:44AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 15, 2004 10:58AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Ahatmose December 15, 2004 11:52AM

Ummm

Warwick L Nixon December 15, 2004 12:47PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Pete Clarke December 16, 2004 05:20AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 15, 2004 12:13PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

DougWeller December 15, 2004 12:27PM

Witches

DougWeller December 15, 2004 01:25PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

bill barrington December 15, 2004 12:03AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Stephanie December 14, 2004 04:40PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

kenuchelover December 16, 2004 06:45AM

the birth of monotheism WITH an interactive god

Jim Lewandowski December 14, 2004 10:53AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

mstower December 14, 2004 10:55AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

John Wall December 14, 2004 11:16AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Joanne December 14, 2004 11:54AM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Roxana December 14, 2004 03:56PM

Moderation Note...

Katherine Reece December 14, 2004 04:33PM

Re: Moderation Note...

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 06:34PM

Re: Moderation Note...

Joanne December 14, 2004 06:35PM

Re: Moderation Note...

Anthony December 14, 2004 07:06PM

Re: Moderation Note...

Ahatmose December 14, 2004 07:36PM

Re: Moderation Note...

Roxana Cooper December 14, 2004 07:33PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

kenuchelover December 16, 2004 05:51AM

History is not a Falsifiable Topic!

darkuser December 14, 2004 08:46PM

Re: History is not a Falsifiable Topic!

imorf December 15, 2004 12:08AM

Re: History is not a Falsifiable Topic!

Roxana Cooper December 15, 2004 10:02AM

Re: History is not a Falsifiable Topic!

kenuchelover December 16, 2004 04:11AM

Re: History is not a Falsifiable Topic!

Warwick L Nixon December 15, 2004 02:35PM

Re: What do you think is the greatest human disaster/loss/setback in history?

Anonymous User December 15, 2004 09:36AM

Have to strongly disagree

Ahatmose December 15, 2004 10:15AM

Re: Have to strongly disagree

Pete Clarke December 15, 2004 10:20AM

Re: Have to strongly disagree

Anonymous User December 15, 2004 05:58PM

Try WWI.... or it's bastard child, communism.

kenuchelover December 16, 2004 03:55AM

Re: Try WWI.... or it's bastard child, communism.

Anonymous User December 16, 2004 07:17AM

Re: Try WWI.... or it's bastard child, communism.

DougWeller December 16, 2004 12:34PM



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