imorf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "with Alexandria, most of the early "losses" were
> sold on the sly, & the destroyed books were
> mostly re Christian theology.... or so I've
> heard"
>
> that's interesting, I've never come across that
> view point/ possibility (although on face value I
> doubt, given the magnitude of the library -as
> described-, would notice such losses unless they
> were on a grand scale).

As you'll note from [www.bede.org.uk]
[www.newadvent.org]
[www.ehistory.com]
there is considerable confusion as to WHAT exactly happened to the library.

Assorted people might have burned it, and one ancient historian.... who had a habit of whitewashing the actions of his fellow christians.... indicated that at least some of the books were removed (rather than destroyed) by his co-religionists.

Pay special attention to that first link.... the site has special properties. Scroll down to the entries on "Socrates Scholasticus, Hermias Sozomen and Theodoret" and on "Paulus Orosius". Lightly running your cursor (mouse pointer) over the highlited textual titles (the relevant ones here are Socrates's "History of the Church" and Orosius's "History of the Pagans"), which will open a smaller browser window with the translated text.

BOTH those texts strongly suggest that Christians looted the Great Library & the daughter library in the Serapeum.

For example, Socrates says: "Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt.....Then he destroyed the Serapeum.....The pagans of Alexandria, and especially the professors of philosophy, were unable to repress their rage at this exposure". Now, the full text mentions various religious artifacts that were exposed.... but the specific mention of PROFESSORS OF PHILOSPHY being outraged at the destruction is quite suggestive.

And Orosius says: "today there exist in the temples book chests which we ourselves have seen and which we are told were emptied by our own men in our own time when these temples were plundered (and this is indeed the truth)".... the full text suggests that this was in ADDITION to a library of some 400,000 volumes that had been accidentally burned by Julius Caesar.

> Also wouldn't the most ambitious growth period of
> the library been pre-christian?

Yes. But many of the losses were thought to have been under Christian hands. And I've (elsewhere) heard claims that under Theophilus, the "plundering" of the temples involved only texts that were considered "pagan" (histories, scientific & philosophic treatises, etc).... leaving a pauperized library of politically, er "religiously", correct volumes for the Muslims to destroy. It's been theorized that human nature being what it was, many valuable texts ended up on the black market rather than destroyed as Theophilus intended. Burning books is a fine old Christian tradition.... but how many Christians would burn a book they could bootleg for a years salary or more?

> Think though of the histories lost that were even
> ancient to them.

Yep. And of the traditions lost when Ghengis Khan wiped untold numbers of cities off the face of the earth. Whole peoples, languages, cultures, histories.... gone.

> Let's play alternative history:
> Perhaps if the Hellenistic (outward looking) point
> of view of the library had survived, the Christian
> & European outlook might have evolved to a
> less detrimental impact on the rest of the world.

I suspect that would have been true.

> "Thera blowing up, and taking indoor plumbing with
> it for the next 3,000 years"
> Didn't Romans employ indoor plumbing (to some
> extent)?
> They certainly knew about moving hot water around
> in the baths.

I'm talking flush toilets..... indoor tubs in most houses (vs Greco-Roman public baths).... possibly even hot & cold running tapwater (if my memory serves).

Mind you, the Romans DID do fine things.... see [www.vroma.org] , so it's possible that #2 was overstated a bit. O.K., I withdraw it and replace it with the invention of Old World empires (Mongols razing all those city states, Romans homogenizing Europe, etc, etc, etc).

Kenuchelover.