Joanne Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sdelaney Wrote:
>
> >
> > I think your jump from evangelism to
> cultural
> > genocide is a little too far.
>
> Evangelism may not be the right word. Officially,
> the position of the church for a long time has
> been that Christ will not come again until
> everyone believes.
I'm not sure that I agree that this is or was a basic doctine of the church.
That is the basis for the
> evangelism, the desire to convert. I agree that
> power and greed became involved, but I come back
> to the worldview of the church.
>
> In 1494, Pope Alexander VI divided all
> non-Christian lands on earth between Spain and
> Portugal. The contries hammered out more details
> in the Treaty of Tordesillas. To me, this shows
> intent. That people living in all those
> non-Christian countries were citizens of their own
> lands, with rights to govern themselves and keep
> their own religious traditions was not even
> considered.
Was the purpose of the treaty and the pope's intervention to come up with a grand scheme to convert the world, or was it a means to keep two important powers from fighting with each other in Europe? Were there other political or major power considerations involved rather than simple religous zealotry? I'm not up on the details enough to comment authoritatively, but perhaps someone who is can contribute?
It would be a pretty common trait that people intent on robbing you (or conquering you) have little regard for your interests. I do not agree that this requires religious inspiration.
>
>
> > I agree that Europeans did not develop all of
> the
> > technology but the dynamics of the European
> > civilization did result in a technological
> > advantage (but that's not your point I
> realize).
>
> Part of the "dynamics" is the worldview.
> Gunpowder can be used to make beauriful fireworks
> or to control other people.
The Chinese used gunpowder for weapons too! So did everyone else who came in touch with the technology including the Tatars, Arabs, Turks ...
>
>
> > To your point, I agree that it was not the
> > technology that "caused" the conquest. But it
> was
> > the technology that made it possible. You
> suggest
> > it was the worldview of the conquerors that
> was
> > the cause and I assume you believe that
> worldview
> > was the result of evangelism. I will agree
> that
> > evangelism influenced that worldview, but I
> think
> > power and greed were the more important
> elements.
>
> I don't think power and greed were the more
> important elements, they just became entwined with
> the plan to Christianize the world.
An unresolvable difference of opinion here I guess.
>
>
> > Conquering other people's was not something
> unique
> > in history to christian europeans either.
> Within
> > the limitations of the technologies of the
> time,
> > millions have died and many cultures have
> been
> > destroyed or warped throughout our wonderful
> human
> > history, and long before the first pope.
>
> I agree with you that conquering other people is
> not unique to Christian Europeans. But the extent
> of genocide and cultural genocide that came out of
> Christian Europe around 500 years ago was unique
> at that time.
>
Unique is perhaps too strong a word. There is a certain element of chance involved here. Up until the Americas were "discovered" by Europe, all previous genocidal opportunities were more or less between neighbours. The vagueries of trade and exchanges in technology tended to prevent huge differences in technical capabilities. And likewise many diseases were being regularly shared about. Given the apparently normal conquering tendencies of humans as practiced by 16th century and onward Europeans, technologies that allowed for regular ocean transport, a "new world", and you have a recipe for disaster of the proportions we have witnessed. a religious element - certainly - but not the root cause IMHO.
Gwyn Dyre is a writer and correspondent who deals with War regularly. In a recent interview on his new book release he mentioned that war-like behaviours are observed in our chimpanzee relatives. Perhaps our species has over-developed this trait; but its origins are far deeper or more ancient than popes.
Steve D.
