JS: "I remember reading something Joanne Conman posted a couple of years ago arguing that sAH was not a single star or asterism but a region on the Horizon where Sirius and other stars rose. This would make sense in terms of sAH being the "Father of the Gods".


You think that makes sense? Have you actually read the PTs?


"The sky shall conceive you with Orion (sAH), the morning-star shall give you birth with Orion (sAH). Live! Live, as the gods have commanded you live. With Orion (sAH) in the eastern arm of the sky shall you go up, with Orion (sAH) in the western arm of the sky shall you go down. Sothis (spdt), whose places are clean, is the third of you two: she is the one who will lead you two in the Marsh of Reeds to the perfect paths of the sky. P 38 (N 9); PT 442 §819


So how could the king accompany Orion from the eastern horizon across the southern part of the sky to the western horizon if Orion was just a region on the eastern horizon where the stars rose????


I am Horus on the day of accession, I am Orion (sAH) who treads (sAH, lit. toes) his Two Lands, who navigates in front of the stars of the sky on the belly on my mother Nut... CT 227


How did Orion tread his Two Lands and navigate in front of the stars if Orion was just a region of the eastern horizon????


The AE must be turning over in their graves with despair.



JS: "As I have mentioned in my previous posts on this, the association betwen SAh and Orion's belt can't be dated any earlier than the Coffin texts of the Middle Kingdom. The lack of any evidence of an earlier association between sAH and the belt stars actually makes it less likely that sAH was associated with Orion much earlier than that time."



Sah (sAH) in the MK Coffin Texts is exactly the same Sah (sAH) in the OK Pyramid Texts, and scholars have identified both the PT and CT sAH with the large distinctive constellation of Orion or to some part of Orion, just as they have identified Sopdet (spdt) with Sirius.


Many texts mentioning Orion in the PTs are also in the CTs. For example:


"The sky has become disheveled, the earth has trembled. Horus has come, Thoth has appeared, that they might raise Osiris from off his side and make him stand up in the Dual Ennead. Remember, Seth, and put in your heart this speech that Geb has said, this curse that the gods have made against you in the Official's Enclosure in Iunu, because you threw Osiris to the earth, when you said, Seth: "It was not against him that I did this," so that you might take control thereby when your control was taken away for Horus; when you said, Seth: "In fact he has been kicking me," and his identity of Orion came into being, wide of foot, spread of stride, and foremost of Upper Egypt. PT 477


"Opening the doors of the sky, throwing open the doors of the firmament. Horus appears, Thoth comes, they come to Osiris and they cause him to go forth at the head of the Enneads. Remember, Seth, and put in your heart this word which Geb spoke against you, this threat which the gods made against you in the mansion of the Prince which is in Iunu when you felled Osiris to the earth in Nedit, when you said, Seth, 'I did not do this', so that you might have power over Horus; when you said, Seth, 'It was he who attacked me', when there came into being his name of 'Earth-attacker(?)'; when you said, Seth, 'It was he who kicked me', when there came into being his name of 'Osiris as Orion, long of leg and lengthy of stride, who presides over Upper Egypt'." CT 837


another example:

You shall touch the sky like Orion (sAH), your ba shall be sharp like Sothis (spdt) PT 412 §723


So your argument is that Sah in the PT's is different to the Sah in the CT's - why do come to that conclusion when we have the same texts in both?



JS: "Right, so the problem facing anyone wanting to show a sAH/Orion association earlier than the Middle Kingdom is twofold: you have to conclusively prove that the parts of the PTs mentioning sAH are older than the Pyramids in which they were written and you have to prove that the Decanal lists found in the Coffin texts were in existance when the Gizamids were built. Over to you."


Did you actually read my post?


"Its human nature to search for absolutes, certainties, a black and white world where everything is neatly ordered, clear and simple - a world for spin merchants who don't like 'ifs' and 'perhaps', shades of gray as we find in intelligence reports - much better to promote an air of certainty where the 'enemy' is clearly defined with no doubts to weaken the vision. Its more a question of what is more or less likely. Its likely that Sah (sAH, 'Orion'), 'father of the gods' in the earliest PTs, was the personification of the large distinctive constellation of Orion, and Sopdet (spdt, 'Sirius') the personification of Sirius, the brightest star in their sky after the sun....."


You are searching for absolute proofs and certainties, but you will be disappointed. As I wrote, we can only stick with what is more or less likely.


CT