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May 4, 2024, 8:42 pm UTC    
August 03, 2007 03:04PM
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Its more a question of what is more or less likely. Its likely that Sah (sAH, 'Orion'), 'father of the gods' in the earliest PTs, was the personification of the large distinctive constellation of Orion, and Sopdet (spdt, 'Sirius') the personification of Sirius, the brightest star in their sky after the sun.

I remember reading something Joanne Conman posted a couple of years ago arguing that sAH was not a single star or asterism but a region on the Horizon where Sirius and other stars rose. This would make sense in terms of sAH being the "Father of the Gods". As I have mentioned in my previous posts on this, the association betwen SAh and Orion's belt can't be dated any earlier than the Coffin texts of the Middle Kingdom. The lack of any evidence of an earlier association between sAH and the belt stars actually makes it less likely that sAH was associated with Orion much earlier than that time.

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Its also likely these two stellar deities, who were paired together, were known much earlier than the earliest PTs from the end of Dyn 5. After all, Orion and Sirius were crossing the southern part of the sky throughout AE history - they did not just suddenly appear in the sky at the end of Dyn 5, and bearing in mind the overwhelming evidence for the royal funerary / afterlife beliefs that had a significant celestial content, including stars, from very early on in their history, it seems reasonable to infer that Orion and Sirius were recognized.

As we don't have any mention of sAH prior to the 5th Dynasty, it's actually less likely that sAH was recognized in earlier times. Of course, they must have been aware of the stars that make up the modern constellation of Orion as well as all the other visible stars in the night sky and the belt stars are noticeable because they are close together. However, you have to provide a better argument than: "just because they noticed the belt stars, they made an association with a God", as clearly there were many other stars and asterisms that they did not associate with any Gods at that time.

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The ancient Egyptians from later times believed 'Orion' was recognized in Dyn 4. An intriguing chapter from 'The Book of Coming Forth by Day' (Theban Recension), describes how Khufu's son Hordedef was inspecting the temples in Wenu (wnw, 'Hare-town') where he came across an interesting text which he brought back to his father Khufu. This text was later included in the chapter of knowing all the chapters of going forth by day - it mentions Orion.

I'm sorry, but cherry-picking from New Kingdom sources does not provide much of an argument.

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"Although they are first attested in the pyramid of Unis, most of the Pyramid Texts are undoubtedly older. With few exceptions, their grammar is that of a stage of the language that disappeared from secular inscriptions at least fifty years earlier, and the architecture of the pyramid chambers that they reflect came into use at the end of the Fourth Dynasty, more than a hundred years before Unis's time. Some of the texts reflect burial practices that are even older, in earthen graves beneath tombs built of mudbrick. Newer spells that first appear in the later pyramids, however, incorporate features of the contemporary language.

Right, so the problem facing anyone wanting to show a sAH/Orion association earlier than the Middle Kingdom is twofold: you have to conclusively prove that the parts of the PTs mentioning sAH are older than the Pyramids in which they were written and you have to prove that the Decanal lists found in the Coffin texts were in existance when the Gizamids were built. Over to you.

-Joe.







Subject Author Posted

'The Circumpolar Constellations in Ancient Egypt' by Bauval

Richard Fusniak August 01, 2007 04:08AM

Re: 'The Circumpolar Constellations in Ancient Egypt' by Bauval

Dave L August 01, 2007 04:31AM

Re: 'The Circumpolar Constellations in Ancient Egypt' by Bauval

Morph August 01, 2007 05:58AM

Re: 'The Circumpolar Constellations in Ancient Egypt' by Bauval

Warwick L Nixon August 01, 2007 08:52AM

Interesting contradiction....

Anthony August 01, 2007 09:18AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Warwick L Nixon August 01, 2007 09:23AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Dave L August 01, 2007 09:27AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Anthony August 01, 2007 09:31AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Dave L August 01, 2007 09:48AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Anthony August 01, 2007 10:26AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Warwick L Nixon August 01, 2007 09:56AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Chris Tedder August 01, 2007 12:11PM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Warwick L Nixon August 01, 2007 12:25PM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Anthony August 01, 2007 02:04PM

Re: Interesting contradiction.... PS

Anthony August 01, 2007 05:01PM

Re: Interesting contradiction.... PS

Chris Tedder August 03, 2007 12:17PM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Chris Tedder August 03, 2007 11:53AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Joe_S August 01, 2007 03:40PM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Warwick L Nixon August 02, 2007 10:11AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Chris Tedder August 02, 2007 04:32PM

Re: Interesting Theosophy....

Morph August 03, 2007 04:43AM

Re: Interesting Theosophy....

Morph August 03, 2007 05:07AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Joe_S August 03, 2007 03:04PM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Chris Tedder August 03, 2007 04:38PM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Greg Reeder August 03, 2007 04:39PM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Hermione August 04, 2007 06:31AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Chris Tedder August 04, 2007 07:13AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Hermione August 04, 2007 01:41PM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Chris Tedder August 04, 2007 02:08PM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Hermione August 05, 2007 04:06AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Chris Tedder August 05, 2007 05:04AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Ritva Kurittu August 05, 2007 07:39AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Ritva Kurittu August 05, 2007 07:34AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Hermione August 05, 2007 07:56AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Ritva Kurittu August 05, 2007 09:34AM

Re: Interesting contradiction....

Dave L August 02, 2007 11:21AM



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