Joanne Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I dislike scientism to an extent as well but
> I
> > also perceive that there are times where it
> > definitely has applications.
>
> Just to clarify here, scientism is an irrational
> belief that modern western science can solve or
> explain everything in the natural universe. It is
> a blind faith in thescientific method as some
> universal method. Scientism should not be confused
> with science or scientific methodology. What I'm
> questioning or challenging in what you say is what
> seems to be an inherent view that science can
> explain all phenomena related to skinwalkers (or
> any other supernatural occurrances). And that
> last bit is where I disagree.

Sorry for the miswording. I am fatigued today. What I meant to imply was that science, itself, can have a role in these matters. As you can read several times, I firmly believe that there are things that science either a. does not consider or b. cannot explain if they did.

> I think it's OK to attempt to explain anything you
> want; I just object to having the explanation
> limited by scientific methodology is certain
> cases. If something is beyond science, that is,
> non-provable using proper scientific method, don't
> use science to explain it.

Exactly. However, in the case of these three characteristics of skinwalkers, scientific explanation can explain them quite well while still being in the parameters of the belief of the Navajo themselves. You ask a Navajo if a skinwalker is real, they will say it is. You ask a Navajo if they can run faster than normal and they will say yes. Ask them about their eyes and they will say that they have a red gleam or glow. Science can play an effective role in skinwalkers because this phenomena has been observed in feral children as well. Now, obviously these feral children aren't skinwalkers, too...If you have confirmation that something can occur in normal human beings, then this would be a definite indication that it is neither impossible or supernatural. It's an adaptive difference.


>
> Well, if they are human, they can be caught on
> film and by police or federal agents. If they are
> breaking laws, they can be prosecuted. If that's
> not happening, then the skinwalkers' behavior is
> being tolerated. If they are truly supernatural,
> then perhaps they would not be caught on film or
> by police and/or federal agents.

See my response to Cicely's oddball question, here.

>If they continue
> until something is done that is counteractive,
> that still suggests a societal custom that is
> tolerated. What do Navajo who follow the NAC or
> Christianity do when they are attacked by
> skinwalkers? IOW, do spiritual leaders of those
> religions offer other solutions to their
> followers?

Most Navajo, irregardless of religious preference, will turn to a medicine man. "Christianity" among Navajo is not so clear cut. One can go to church and still believe in the Great Spirit. There is alot of blending that goes on. In the case of the minister and his wife, they had to use a medicine man as well.


> > However, to even suggest that the navajo are
> > sanctioning skinwalker activity would be an
> > absolutely repugnant idea. The Navajo view
> > skinwalkers with intense shame, embarassment
> and
> > revulsion.
>
> "Sanctioning" and "tolerating" are not synonyms.
> If the skinwalkers are humans who are terrorizing
> their fellow citizens, there are legal remedies
> available, either within tribal law or under US
> federal law. If people don't use those, and
> engage in ceremonies and other social actions to
> deal with the problem, that suggests acceptance or
> tolerance to me.

Your words: If it's inflicted by people with some goal in mind, and socially sanctioned (by being tolerated in some ways), I suppose I would try to resolve that part of it within the society's methods.

There are numerous problems to pursuing skinwalker activity legally. For one thing, skinwalkers as a rule mar their appearance. You can look one in the face and, although they are recognizable as a human, a person would be hard pressed to identify the same person out of skinwalker guise clearly. This is not to say, however, that the police do not get involved. In the case of the murder of a cousin, the police were most definitely involved. One of the primary reasons why Navajo are so reticent about it is out of fear. They are not choosing to be huddled in their homes at the first sound of flute or footsteps on their roof. Skinwalkers do not act alone during a visit. You may see or hear one but there are others present. Even if the police were able to catch one of them, odds are they won't be able to catch all. A step further and even if the police were to collect the others from information from the caught skinwalker (who would face death anyways for being caught), you still have more skinwalkers that will know and will pursue the original victim even harder. It's a pretty well wrought system they have.
>
> Let me repeat the question I wrote above: what do
> Navajo who follow other religions do to cope with
> skinwalkers?

As I said above, they go to a medicine man. To give an idea of how prevalent medicine man usage is on the reservation, it was recently made reimbursable through the tribe's insurance that is provided for tribal employs.

>Can other religious leaders help
> make peace? I suppose if there's a ceremony where
> one will come in and talk, maybe you could simply
> ask what they want and what it would take for them
> to leave you alone permanently? Is that possible?

I mentioned that there is such a ceremony that medicine men can do in another post. I'll repeat it here. This ceremony is held in a hogan (of course) and at night. Only smoldering coals in the center of the hogan light it so it's quite dark. The participants in the ceremony sit in a U shape with the open end towards the door of the hogan, which is left open. This is an invitation to parlay with a skinwalker who has been visiting an area, whose reasons for visiting are unclear to the medicine man. I think it would be really quite hard to get them to stop visiting permanently. Even if an agreement was made with one skinwalker, you have many, many others who may--just like regular people--have differing opinions. My family would probably have to leave the SW in order to stop the visitations.

Stephanie



In every man there is something wherein I may learn of him, and in that I am his pupil.--Ralph Waldo Emerson