February 15, 2005 12:02PM
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Registered: 19 years ago
Posts: 8,618
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Stephanie Wrote:
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> Joanne,
>
> If you haven't forgotten, my husband and extended
> family are all Navajo. Comprehending the mysteries
> that skinwalkers pose is something that many
> people out here contemplate. You'd be surprised
> as to which family member gave me the books to
> read in regards to skinwalkers--the uncle who is
> the stepson and grandson of medicine men. This is
> not just my "western thinking project".
Teacup summed it all up better than I. I've known Indians who have a modern Western POV, and some modern "Western" people who can understand traditional thinking better than some Indians. It's not who you are but your methodology that I'm questioning here. And Teacup has put things more clearly than I did.
> To me, knowing that their abilities could have a
> scientific source makes them infinitely more
> amazing--and frightening. My use of "western
> science" is not refuting these abilities at all
> (the shapeshifting one is my opinion based on what
> I saw)--it's a confirmation of them.
That is not my point, though. I happen to dislike scientism intensely. I am convinced that there are things beyond science. I don't have a problem discussing such things, speculating about them, etc. But science has limits in these areas. That's all.
> My point is that this is something that can
> dramatically effect anyone living on the navajo
> reservation. Personally, I think that skinwalkers
> do their most damage through sheer sleep
> disruption, lol. Think about this, Joanne: How
> would you feel if you had somebody roaming around
> your residence in the wee hours, night after
> night? How would you feel if you knew that this
> person had weapons that could harm you without
> even laying a finger on you, can see infinitely
> better than you and have incredible speed? How
> would you feel if you knew this person was there
> out of malice for your person? What is going to
> help you then? Believing that it is supernatural?
What you describe (partly snipped) is terrorism. If it's inflicted by people with some goal in mind, and socially sanctioned (by being tolerated in some ways), I suppose I would try to resolve that part of it within the society's methods. That's part of why I mentioned my professor's tale. That was what worked for him.
However, the supernatural issue is complex IMO. One of the things I particularly dislike about scientism is the false confidence it gives. Using science to analyze or explain the skinwalker is a way to control or manage them, to have power over them, ins't it? What you can name, define, etc., you control. The question is: is that truly possible? If so, is that your goal? Or is your goal to make peace with them and stop the attacks? Can that be done?
Subject |
Author |
Posted |
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Stephanie |
February 14, 2005 07:51PM |
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Joanne |
February 15, 2005 10:46AM |
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Damian Walter |
February 15, 2005 10:55AM |
|
Joanne |
February 15, 2005 11:06AM |
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premalatha balan |
February 15, 2005 11:13AM |
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Joanne |
February 15, 2005 11:24AM |
|
premalatha balan |
February 15, 2005 11:32AM |
|
Joanne |
February 15, 2005 11:39AM |
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Damian Walter |
February 15, 2005 12:22PM |
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Stephanie |
February 15, 2005 11:40AM |
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Joanne |
February 15, 2005 12:02PM |
|
Stephanie |
February 15, 2005 12:56PM |
|
Joanne |
February 15, 2005 01:56PM |
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cicely |
February 15, 2005 02:16PM |
|
Stephanie |
February 15, 2005 02:45PM |
|
Joanne |
February 16, 2005 07:07AM |
|
Stephanie |
February 15, 2005 02:39PM |
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Joanne |
February 16, 2005 07:15AM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 03:11PM |
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teacup |
February 15, 2005 11:32AM |
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Stephanie |
February 15, 2005 12:18PM |
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cicely |
February 15, 2005 12:29PM |
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Stephanie |
February 15, 2005 01:08PM |
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teacup |
February 15, 2005 12:39PM |
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Stephanie |
February 15, 2005 01:19PM |
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teacup |
February 15, 2005 01:16PM |
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Stephanie |
February 15, 2005 01:24PM |
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Sam |
February 15, 2005 08:32PM |
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Stephanie |
February 15, 2005 08:46PM |
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teacup |
February 15, 2005 08:48PM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 01:52AM |
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teacup |
February 16, 2005 05:20AM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 11:30AM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 16, 2005 11:45AM |
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cicely |
February 16, 2005 12:09PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 16, 2005 12:22PM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 04:37PM |
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premalatha balan |
February 16, 2005 12:24PM |
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teacup |
February 16, 2005 12:51PM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 03:37PM |
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Doug Weller |
February 16, 2005 07:54AM |
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Sam |
February 16, 2005 08:52PM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 10:27PM |
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Sam |
February 17, 2005 04:05AM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 12:20PM |
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Joanne |
February 17, 2005 12:54PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 01:09PM |
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Sam |
February 15, 2005 09:07PM |
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teacup |
February 15, 2005 09:19PM |
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Sam |
February 15, 2005 09:43PM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 02:02AM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 16, 2005 05:05AM |
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Joanne |
February 16, 2005 07:23AM |
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cicely |
February 16, 2005 09:54AM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 16, 2005 10:22AM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 16, 2005 10:45AM |
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cicely |
February 16, 2005 10:48AM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 04:18PM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 04:11PM |
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Joanne |
February 16, 2005 04:33PM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 05:53PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 16, 2005 06:15PM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 11:24PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 16, 2005 11:49PM |
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Joanne |
February 17, 2005 10:40AM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 12:39PM |
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Joanne |
February 17, 2005 01:05PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 01:34PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 17, 2005 01:43PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 02:06PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 17, 2005 02:18PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 02:54PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 12:23PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 17, 2005 12:40PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 01:41PM |
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Joanne |
February 17, 2005 10:36AM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 03:51PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 17, 2005 12:06PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 12:58PM |
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Joanne |
February 17, 2005 01:07PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 01:24PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 17, 2005 01:17PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 17, 2005 01:54PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 16, 2005 10:51AM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 04:25PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 16, 2005 04:30PM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 05:25PM |
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Stephanie |
February 16, 2005 11:13PM |
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Sam |
February 17, 2005 03:35AM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 17, 2005 04:45AM |
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Sam |
February 17, 2005 05:33AM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 17, 2005 12:40PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 01:16PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 17, 2005 01:39PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 02:30PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 17, 2005 02:47PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 03:01PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 17, 2005 04:23PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 17, 2005 04:26PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 17, 2005 04:32PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 17, 2005 04:47PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 17, 2005 04:30PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 04:48PM |
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Doug Weller |
February 18, 2005 04:11PM |
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Stephanie |
February 18, 2005 05:38PM |
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Lee |
February 17, 2005 02:54PM |
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Lee |
February 17, 2005 03:01PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 03:59PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 03:48PM |
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Stephanie |
February 18, 2005 12:13AM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 18, 2005 12:15AM |
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Joanne |
February 18, 2005 08:30AM |
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Stephanie |
February 18, 2005 11:44AM |
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Joanne |
February 17, 2005 11:10AM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 01:20PM |
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Joanne |
February 17, 2005 03:35PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 04:19PM |
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Joanne |
February 17, 2005 06:04PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 17, 2005 06:56PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 07:05PM |
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Joanne |
February 17, 2005 08:17PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 10:58PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 18, 2005 12:19PM |
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Stephanie |
February 18, 2005 02:30PM |
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cicely |
February 18, 2005 02:53PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 18, 2005 03:00PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 18, 2005 03:28PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 18, 2005 03:34PM |
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Joanne |
February 18, 2005 06:16PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 18, 2005 02:56PM |
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Stephanie |
February 18, 2005 03:10PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 18, 2005 03:12PM |
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cicely |
February 18, 2005 03:14PM |
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Doug Weller |
February 18, 2005 03:35PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 18, 2005 03:40PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 18, 2005 03:42PM |
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Doug Weller |
February 18, 2005 03:43PM |
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Joanne |
February 18, 2005 06:22PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 18, 2005 06:38PM |
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Doug Weller |
February 18, 2005 06:54PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 19, 2005 03:55AM |
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Stephanie |
February 18, 2005 04:25PM |
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Joanne |
February 18, 2005 06:12PM |
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stryfe |
February 18, 2005 08:57PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 19, 2005 03:56AM |
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stryfe |
February 19, 2005 01:31PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 19, 2005 01:55PM |
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Stephanie |
February 19, 2005 02:13PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 19, 2005 03:22PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 19, 2005 03:39PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 19, 2005 03:46PM |
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Stephanie |
February 19, 2005 03:59PM |
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stryfe |
February 19, 2005 03:57PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 20, 2005 05:36AM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 17, 2005 04:49PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 05:17PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
February 17, 2005 04:46PM |
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Stephanie |
February 17, 2005 05:15PM |
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stryfe |
February 18, 2005 06:30PM |
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Tommi Huhtamaki |
February 18, 2005 06:39PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 18, 2005 06:39PM |
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teacup |
February 19, 2005 02:31PM |
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stryfe |
February 19, 2005 03:06PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 19, 2005 03:23PM |
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teacup |
February 19, 2005 04:13PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 19, 2005 04:50PM |
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stryfe |
February 19, 2005 04:54PM |
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cicely |
February 19, 2005 04:59PM |
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stryfe |
February 19, 2005 05:00PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 19, 2005 05:25PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 19, 2005 05:32PM |
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teacup |
February 19, 2005 05:46PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 19, 2005 05:54PM |
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Stephanie |
February 19, 2005 06:00PM |
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Stephanie |
February 19, 2005 05:54PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 19, 2005 05:59PM |
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Stephanie |
February 19, 2005 06:11PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 19, 2005 06:38PM |
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Stephanie |
February 19, 2005 06:45PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 19, 2005 06:47PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 19, 2005 06:55PM |
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teacup |
February 19, 2005 06:17PM |
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Stephanie |
February 19, 2005 06:36PM |
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teacup |
February 19, 2005 07:04PM |
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Katherine Reece |
February 19, 2005 07:09PM |
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stryfe |
February 19, 2005 07:24PM |
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teacup |
February 19, 2005 05:04PM |
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stryfe |
February 19, 2005 05:44PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 19, 2005 05:20PM |
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teacup |
February 19, 2005 05:27PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 19, 2005 05:48PM |
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teacup |
February 19, 2005 06:05PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 19, 2005 06:11PM |
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Stephanie |
February 19, 2005 06:47PM |
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Stephanie |
February 19, 2005 06:42PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 19, 2005 06:54PM |
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Stephanie |
February 19, 2005 04:52PM |
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Sam |
February 19, 2005 06:05PM |
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Stephanie |
February 19, 2005 06:26PM |
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Sam |
February 19, 2005 07:04PM |
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stryfe |
February 19, 2005 07:34PM |
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Sam |
February 19, 2005 09:47PM |
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lobo-hotei |
February 19, 2005 06:29PM |