Byrd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Warwick L Nixon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > But...amongst the Tlingit the Shamans place
> IS
> > well defined within the overall 'tribal'
> > Heirarchy.
>
> In the Tlingit, the status is defined by kinship.
> There isn't a "council of shamans" with a "highest
> shaman of all" determining who can and can't
> become a shaman.


I didn't say or mean to imply that there was.

Individual shamans in many
> cultures take apprentices but they do not act as a
> group (they may often curse and counter-curse each
> other.) They aren't sanctioned by the rulers of
> the tribe.


But my point was that the Tlingit Shamans WERE sanctioned/recognised. And their role within the society was clearly defined as were the rituals of said society.

As you go up and down the Pacific Coast each original Tribal/family group had it's own particular Masks, fetishes, totems ,rituals. All of which fell within the same general overall belief system. Very much like the Nomal variances in ritual ,divinities, fetish etc that we find in Ancient Egypt.


> > But awareness of the role their beliefs
> > played in their daily lives is the direct
> result
> > of one seeing how easily they went along with
> the
> > Dictates of Missionary Policy. They had no
> > concept of a Holy Man NOT having their best
> > interests at heart.
>
> Actually, they did. Magic was commonplace in
> their lives and the idea of cursing and so forth
> was also known.


Yes but my point was that because they believed in the power of magic they assumed that the magic of the Missionarries was more powerful than theirs. As a result of this Respect/fear they were more easily subdued/gulled. When they were told that it was sin to to speak their own language, practise their ritual dances, potlaches, copper exchanges etc, even being left handed......They submitted to the authority of the Missionaries.

Virtually the same thing took place in Mexico. They believed that Cortes beat them because his God was more powerful than their Gods.

an aside re :

my Replicarving. The classic Tlinglit Shaman rattle is one the pieces I have yet to have a go at carving.

[www.google.ca]

there was a well defined 'canon' surrounding their design. You can see that it involved intricate undercutting that was quite unique...and is, frankly, daunting.

This is yet another comparisson one can make with the AE's...as both were using Copper and Stone carving tools!!!


Warwick



" I have always found that the main obstacle to free
association on these boards is the broad
misconception that what we do not know is more
significant than what we do know."

Warwick L Nixon, March 8, 2019