Hi Teacup,

sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but a working girl has to do what a working girl has to do, heheh. Here in Finland it means a reduction of the private time for leasures by 7 hours a day, ghhhh!





> I think you have the wrong picture of the
> skinwalkers. They are human, they think as humans
> and act like humans when not in "animal" form. And
> even in animal form, they still think, they do not
> solely "go on instincts" since they are, after
> all, still at half humans!

>Excuse me?????
>That is a mighty big set of assumptions on your part, Ritva. Either that or I would like to see >some authoritative cites and quotes regarding this, starting with do Navajo skinwalkers even >exist in the first place, human or not. (?)


Yes, isn’t it just?
What I wrote about skinwalkers is based firstly on what I know about shapeshifting and shamanism. There are very good books about it out there that you can check for “authoritative cites and quotes” if you do not take my word for it, if your knowledge about shapeshifting and shamanism is lacking or if you just want the info spelled out to you straight from a book without any effort from your side.
Secondly, I have added to the info I have from those books (and elsewhere) the details Stephanie and Stryfe have given here. Yes, I agree, theirs might not be the opinion of the whole Navajo nation, nor are they anthropologists, but Stryfe is a Navajo and Stephanie is living with him and his family on the Navajo land, so I recon they have an inside view to the phenomenon. A Navajo view of a Navajo phenomenon, I might add. What's more, their opinion does concorde with what I know about shapeshifting, so I figure it adds up and have therefore no reason to doubt them.

Do the Navajo skinwalkers exist. Hmmm, a tough one, eh? I’d say they do. Not because Stephanie and Stryfe say so, no. But shapeshifting linked to shamanism is a very common practise among the natives, and I can’t really see why I should deny the Navajo having shapeshifters, especially since there is one Navajo telling me so on this board. There are also statements from other natives concerning the Navajo skinwalkers (the Ute, for example), and I do not have any reason to doubt their word either. Still, I do understand, that you want it spelled out for you in a book. Well, it seems that the only book we have on the subject of Navajo skinwlakers is that of Kluckohn, but I’m not sure I can cite that, after all, as Joanne says it is anecdotal and does not count. And I'm sure you take Joanne’s word for it.
So we do have a problem of really, really certifying the data here. But taken the Navajo taboo on skinwalkers in consideration, I’m not sure we will ever get any certified and anthropological info on this topic, so I have decided to go on what I have, think about it as a big girl should and draw my conclusions based on that.




> The Navajo skinwalkers are outcasts.

>Yes, according to some. But in reality they might very well be elite and very much part of the >*very* in crowd.


Yes, that is a possibility. However, there are Ute statements saying, that the Navajo did curse the skinwalkers. Stephanie and Stryfe say the same, as seem to do many other Navajos in the net. Sure enough, one should not take the info in the net very seriously, but in this topic all of the info seems to go to the same direction, so again, I have no reason to doubt it.
Yes, there is the famous Kluckohn book, that states the richest are the most likely to be the witches in the eyes of the Navajo, but then again, that book is anecdotal (according to Joanne) and therefore it does not count for more than Stephanie’s and Stryfe’s word on this.
Status quo?



>They very
> probably are born as outcasts, live as outcasts
> and die as outcasts.

>What is is your evidence for believing so?


I don’t have any evidence as you’d like it, but I have Stephanie’s and Stryfe’s descriptions of the present situation and the knowledge abaout the Navajo having cursed the skinwalkers. Being cursed, IMO, rather automatically causes one to be outcast from a society (any society), therefore again, I have no reason to doubt Stephanie’s and Stryfe’s word on this. After all, they live there and see the events. To me they seem like pretty reasonable people, and I can’t really imagine how they would see the facts any differently, or even quite to the contrary, from the rest of the Navajos.
So again, this is my conclusion.


>This naturally would cause
> grudge and anger and will to revenge onself, which
> they do.

>Do they? I suppose they do. But is there a greater purpose?


I’m sure you asked this before reading further in my posting, so I’ll just skip it. If not OK by you, let me know.




>But at the same time the only hope for
> them to EVER be accepted back, is to turn back the
> clock to the days before the Long Walk when they
> were accepted as respected parts of the Navajo
> society.

>Why do you assume they were ever apart, or, if they were apart, why do you assume they want to >be accepted?


Euh… IMO being cursed rather effectively tears one apart from the community. Do you disagree?
Why would they want to be accepted back? Because they are Navajo! (I’l not explain furter, I’m sure you can figure this one out )


>And how do you do that? One main point is
> keeping the unity between the Navajo people and
> keeping their sacred ways alive. As Stryfe said, a
> great deal has been lost.

>Yes, and now we are beginning to to approach the Yin Yang thing between Fear and Beauty.


Yes, as I wrote further down it is a question of balance. On all levels.


>If nothing is done, more
> will be lost, untill it is beyond recovery and has
> been mutated to hazy mythological tales. As it is
> now the Long Walk is not too far back and the
> tales have been passed on to the next generations.
> IMO, the constant pressure from the skinwalkers
> does keep some of the customs and beliefs alive,
> customs that are otherwise pretty easliy lost in
> the modern world.

>The medicine man. Don't you think he knows this? Why is it that everyone assumes he only has a >right hand and not a left as well? How is it that when he thwarts the skinwalkers he is somehow >able to protect himself against the supposed retaliation of the skinwalkers?


Again, had you read further on my posting you’d have seen, that I did point at the medicinemen as part of theproblem.


>Because he is good? Silly rabbit. The reason he is able to protect himself--if he does at all-- is >because he is powerful, not because he is "good". If he is any kind of wise man--IMO-- he is
>both yin and yang.


Silly rabbit? Me? Oh well, that's a new one! Hmmm, maybe I should start a T-shirt collection as well....
I agree about the medicine man being both polarities in the balance. He has to be, otherwise he cannot really be counted as a “wise man”, can he?



> It would be interesting to gather the info about
> what kind of families are harassed. Are those the
> families, where the old customs are resepected and
> remembered over the average, or is it the other
> way around? Or are these families in some kind of
> connection with the skinwalkers having been
> declared outcasts way back?
>
> This said, as the skinwalkers are outcasts, they
> have to make a living out of something.

>Yeah, they seem have a great infrastructure !! Brilliant communication and transportation, not to >mention the bread and board in the caves. I wonder where they park the vans?


I don’t know where you get the idea of the skinwalkers living in caves. Could you elaborate some, please?


>Yes, I can
> very well think they get paid to scare and harass
> due to personal vendettas, and maybe even due to a
> few dirty medicinemen, who get business thrown
> their way in the form of Blessing Ways to
> perform.
> So are they evil?

>Who? The medicine men or the skinwalkers?


I’m sure, that had you read further (once again) you’d know the answer.


>I'd personally say yes and no.

>And I would agree with you.


Good grief! Agreeing with me can be very dangerous, I’m not an anthropological source and this is not written in any book, that I know of. My conclusion was reached purely by balancing the data I have (or think I have, you might say) and trying to come to a sensible solution. Thrown out of a hat, as some would put it.


So you see, Teacup, I guess we are in the presence of a phenomenon that seems to be rather difficult to document. The topic being taboo amongst the Navajo does not help. Therefore, having the opportunity to hear Stephanie and Stryfe tell about this is a welcome one. Sure, as I wrote before, their opinion and view does not necessarily concord with the whole of the Navajo nation, but at least I get a Navajo opinion, which is much more tha I had before this thread emerged. Because if you think about it, there must be a reason why these two people living in the Navajo reservation think as they do.


Ghhhh, I'm sorry about the typos.





Ritva



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2005 12:40PM by ritva.