Hi Robin,
Thanks for the interesting reading.
I wonder why you disagree with the author's explanation for the discrepancy.
Over the past six months, I have come to the final conclusion that the shafts are stellar, not geometric.
By the way, do you know why Bauval concluded that the QCN shaft points to Kochab? (Gantenbrink's data for QCN have a wide spread: "Based on 14 me
by
keeperzz
-
Ancient Egypt
I tend to agree that we should consider the geometry first, which may then provide a reason why the geometry was chosen.
For example, the niche in the so-called Queen's Chamber was probably for the king's statue or ka statue, and is displaced from the centre of the chamber by eight and a half palms or 34 digits, precisely so based on Petrie's measurements near the base, so by 25
by
Mark Heaton
-
Ancient Egypt
Hi Jim,
My understanding is that, for the Middle and New Kingdoms, the consensus chronology on the whole agrees tolerably well with carbon dates. At any rate the dating adjustments proposed for the Hyksos are relatively small. The problem is the Old Kingdom where the carbon dates are considerably earlier than conventional, and this discrepancy is put down to 'old wood'. However Puchk
by
robin cook
-
Ancient Egypt
Pistol: “Do they have of guess as to which daughter of Khafre it is? Shepsetkau? Rekhetre? Hemetre?”
Hemetre (Hmt-ra). Osiris is mentioned on the entrance lintel and is written with the usual eye and seat signs with determinative of ‘bearded seated man on the ground’.
Bolshakov believed it to be from late 5th dynasty, Baud late 4th.
Pistol: “It's clear to me, the end of the 4th dy
by
Chris Tedder
-
Ancient Egypt
Mark: “My model predicts a slope of just under 45 degrees. Petrie made observations in which he determined a mean angle of just over 44.5 degrees for the core masonry which is concordant with my model. Many others have reported a less steep slope. Could Petrie be correct in his assessment of the angle? He was sure it was just less than 45 degrees and not intended to be 45 degrees”
I came acros
by
Chris Tedder
-
Ancient Egypt
Well done on finding British Museum reference.
I was hoping that the raw data would allow you to plug in the figures to latest calibration curve with the current estimate of half life.
A very monor point:
Isn't the reference date before present 'BP' taken as 1950, so minus 3990 years would be 2041 BC as there is no year 0 with one year from AD 1 to 1 BC?
Isn't the da
by
Mark Heaton
-
Ancient Egypt
Hi Robin,
QuoteI read your explanation and re-read your paper more carefully, and realised that in my clumsy way I was actually saying the same thing.
Some misunderstanding may be due to the fact that my English is not good.
QuoteOne reason to agree that the simultaneous transit method is unlikely to have been used for pyramid orientation is the observation by Glen Dash that the azimuths of
by
keeperzz
-
Ancient Egypt
Hi Alex,
I am working on an update to the paper which I will publish in the next week or so. I think you are referring to the Sothic Cycle dates. Below I have calculated from a Baseline of 16 July (Julian) per Schaefer's "The Heliacal Rise of Sirius and Ancient Egyptian Chronology". Years are in BCE. The scene seems to occur in late November / early December which would deliver
by
engbren
-
Ancient Egypt
> Much of this discussion has focussed on the question of the Khufu shafts and,
> while the targets of the northern shafts remain uncertain, the alignments to Orion
> and Sirius, first noticed by Badawy and Trimble, are extremely difficult to dismiss...
Badawy and Trimble are responsible for the hypothesis that KCS and KCN target Orion's belt and Thuban respectively. It was B
by
Kanga
-
Ancient Egypt
If the changes in orientation of pyramids reflects precessional drift then this implies that the builders worked with a particular set of star targets in the north. But these stars cannot be identified because of the serious question of carbon dating that now emerges. Until this problem is resolved we are left with speculation.
Much of this discussion has focussed on the question of the Khufu
by
robin cook
-
Ancient Egypt
Hi Byrd,
Thank you for your consideration of my work.
Byrd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of the issues with your idea is that the
> Egyptians had two calendars: the civil and the
> common. So while the civil calendar wandered
> backward, the common calendar (based on the rising
> of Sirius) didn't really stray.
Can you pro
by
engbren
-
Ancient Egypt
One of the issues with your idea is that the Egyptians had two calendars: the civil and the common. So while the civil calendar wandered backward, the common calendar (based on the rising of Sirius) didn't really stray.
Westcar also dates to the Middle Kingdom, but Lull and Belamonte are discussing New Kingdom and Ptolemaic period.
by
Byrd
-
Ancient Egypt
Put rather more simply, the inference is that east side of the Base Square was made parallel to the line of polar pointing of the foundation Corner Sockets. It is proposed that the north side of the Base Square was a solar orientation looking west, then the west side of the Base Square was simply at a right angle to the north side, and finally the south side of the Base Square was another precise
by
Mark Heaton
-
Ancient Egypt
Thank you for responding to my post.
In Appendix A of my 2006 monograph on the Grand Gallery of the Great Pyramid (published in 2006 and in the collection of the Sackler Library, Oxford) I noted that:
On the east side, the line of the Corner Sockets is parallel to the Base Square. For the north side, there is a slight deviation between the line of the Base Square and the line of the Corner
by
Mark Heaton
-
Ancient Egypt
GChase Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The northern QC shaft is lined up almost with
> Kocab and the southern QC shaft almost with Sirius.
> But they do match exactly on a certain date 2450
> BC and have the same elevation of 9 on 11.
That may be so, but that date conflicts with the date given by the KC shafts. The final portion of KCN app
by
Kanga
-
Ancient Egypt
Graham: “At Djoser's Saqqara complex there is an inscription: "Horus is the star at the head of the sky”
The name of Netjerikhet’s pyramid is ‘Horus is the star at the head of the sky’ according to Quirke (after Helck), but if, as you state, this name is found in Djoser’s mortuary complex, where is it found?
Early Dynastic agricultural domains were set up to support the royal mo
by
Chris Tedder
-
Ancient Egypt
There is really no dilemma between whether the shafts are purely geometric or whether they are links from stars - the answer is both !
Assume the QC shafts would have exited at the same horizontal level if continued, which seems to be correct.
Then they both must have the same inclination.
The shafts have some variations of the angles in their lengths which makes overall average inclination
by
GChase
-
Ancient Egypt
A few more conclusions:
1. If the shafts were intended for ventilation (the geometrical hypothesis has no other explanation for their purpose), then the builders were not limited by the specific direction of the shafts. In the case of ventilation purpose, it would be more logical to direct the shafts to east and west so as not to have problems with the northern shafts which are bent so as not
by
keeperzz
-
Ancient Egypt
Hi Robin,
Thanks for the link to the topic with the discussion about the shafts. I'll read it all, because this question very interests me.
At now I can express my preliminary opinion on this topic.
1. Shafts are directed to north and south (and not for example to east and west) to emphasize the symbolic connection between north and south. (The whole history of Egypt is connected w
by
keeperzz
-
Ancient Egypt
Hi Alex
You wrote - "do you have any idea for what reason the Egyptians, who could make straight southern shafts (which have no obstacles on their way), nevertheless allowed significant fluctuations of the angle of inclination in some places?"
I suppose the meanderings near the chambers simply reflect construction difficulties. As for variations of angle it has been suggested th
by
robin cook
-
Ancient Egypt
Hi Robin,
Thanks for the interesting comment and I also want to thank you for introducing my 2016 article on this forum.
Although most of the conclusions of the 2016 article remained relevant, need to admit that I was wrong with my variant of the "simultaneous transit" method, and therefore failed to explain the orientation of the Djedefre pyramid, which led to a deadlock all the
by
keeperzz
-
Ancient Egypt
Hi Alexander
Some years back I came across a paper you had written about redating the pyramids and introduced it on this forum -
- unfortunately the idea was not well received and the discussion dissolved in rancour. Further enquiries made it clear that indeed most scholars reject radiocarbon dates because of the 'old wood problem', and it woulld appear that the the general c
by
robin cook
-
Ancient Egypt
The Westcar Papyrus is an ancient Egyptian papyrus thought to date to the Hyksos period (circa 18th to 16th century BCE). The collection of stories centres around the IVth Dynasty Pharaoh Khufu (aka Cheops) and a series of wonders or acts of magic performed by various priests. The stories have been given the title King Cheops and the magicians. In this paper, I review the stories within the Westc
by
engbren
-
Ancient Egypt
Kanga: “Stadelmann proposed that the southern shafts held solar significance. However, I have checked the culmination of the Sun in its equinoctial and solstitial midday positions for 2550 BCE using Stellarium and unfortunately there is no correspondence with either of the southern shafts.”
The sun did not align on “the midday equinoctial and solstitial midday positions”, but as I pointed out,
by
Chris Tedder
-
Ancient Egypt
Chris Tedder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Robin,
>
> Thank you for sharing your excellent diagrams -
> they well illustrate how the shafts seem to tie in
> with the overall design of the pyramid - an
> intriguing aspect of the design.
>
> Apart from these compelling stellar links that
> aligned with the upper and lower
by
Kanga
-
Ancient Egypt
Hi Robin,
Thank you for sharing your excellent diagrams - they well illustrate how the shafts seem to tie in with the overall design of the pyramid - an intriguing aspect of the design.
Apart from these compelling stellar links that aligned with the upper and lower southern shafts every 24 hours throughout the year, we should also take into account how the sun aligned in the winter with the
by
Chris Tedder
-
Ancient Egypt
M.Williams: “Thought Petrie nailed down the inclination for the most part ? How do you decide which part of a a crooked shaft is the important part ?”
Well you obviously did when you declared the shafts take the “shortest route to the exterior”, so how did you decide?
Petrie could only measure the angle between the initial 2m horizontal section and the beginning of the ascending slope of th
by
Chris Tedder
-
Ancient Egypt
M.Williams: “The Queens Chamber Shafts take the shortest route to the exterior, a 90 degree angle from the exterior, and would have exited at the same course on the exterior.”
This is an old idea, and may well be true, but until we know what the angle of inclines for the upper reaches of the QC shafts are, I would wait until the survey data has been published before embracing it. Unless of cou
by
Chris Tedder
-
Ancient Egypt
Hans: “As does other stars I suspect”
A few stars crossed the same area of the sky as the 3-star asterism in Orion, but its not known if any of these other stars played an important role in the ancient Egyptian afterlife beliefs as Orion did. One of these stars has an interesting connection with Orion. Epsilon Scorpii, in the scorpion constellation reached a similar altitude due south as Aln
by
Chris Tedder
-
Ancient Egypt
Robin: “…would you also give the altitudes of Sirius and Kochab in 2560 BC ?”
Kochab: 39.755 degs
Sirius: 39.016 degs
Chris
by
Chris Tedder
-
Ancient Egypt