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April 27, 2024, 3:08 pm UTC    
December 17, 2007 07:55PM
Clive: "Chris Tedder has posted his reasoning why 28 was chosen; 28 fingers divides nicely into the length of arm, but that does not occur unless the arm is outstretched and consisting of the upper and lower portion...whereas the symbol for a Royal cubit shows the arm bent...a slight problem. Is the arm measured when bent or straight? fmetrol adds his points to this concept; he realizes that a 28-segment "bent" arm would only be measured from a human frame of giant proportions, and that is out of the question."



In one of the earliest examples of D42 'forearm with palm down' from early Dyn 4, the forearm is straight with the hand slightly curved downwards with the palm of the hand facing down. Its a simple matter to place the forearm on a flat surface with the palm facing down and measure the length from back of elbow to front tip of middle finger.


The early royal funerary complexes were designed using a basic linear measure, the cubit. So how did they determine the length of their cubit? Did they measure the forearms of 11 of their subjects, and take the average?

Or, did they take the measure from a renowned warrior leader, a hero, his large stature giving him a physical advantage - the king himself, or one of his sons? or one of the elite, all enjoying a very high standard of living, a rich and varied diet - all the requirements that enabled them to reach their full height potential.


For example, a large male skeleton was found in a large double mastaba tomb in the western cemetery at Giza - the skull was of an old man. A Professor of Anatomy erroneously concluded the skull's large dimensions indicated he must have been a man of unusual mental capacity, but the point is, high status males could be very tall and would have stood out from the crowd.

Another partial skeleton from an early Dyn 4 high status burial of possibly a king, gives valuable clues to the size of a royal male. Measurements of the femur, tibia, humerus and radius indicate this person was about 176cm tall +- 5cm.

I am 180cm tall so I just come within the range of his possible height. If I place my forearm on a flat surface similar to the position of the forearm in the hieroglyphic sign for cubit, the length of my forearm from the back of the elbow to the tip of the middle finger is about 50.5cm which is to within a few cm the length of the 52.4cm cubit. In other words, 7 palms is the nearest number of whole palms that fit the length of my forearm, from the back of my elbow to the tip of my middle finger.


Or did they base the cubit on an idealized forearm? - we cannot expect the average forearm to be an exact multiple of 7 palms, just as we cannot expect the solar year to be exactly 365 days long. Nature is not that cooperative. The AE did not take into account the extra 1/4 day in their civil calendar and as a result their 365 day year of twelve 30 day months + 5 days, did not keep in sync with the seasons.

The AE calendar year was an idealized year - it was not based on the exact length of the year to the nearest 1/4 of a day, but to the nearest whole day which is why it 'wandered'. In the same way, the 52.4cm length of the cubit may have been a standardization of an 'ideal' forearm where 7 whole palms fitted exactly.


Other examples of idealized measurements are found in the AE afterlife. The important staple crops of emmer and barley cultivated by the king in his celestial paradise, were supernaturally large compared with natural crops, and were described with mathematical precision. The height of emmer in the 'Marsh of Reeds' was 7 cubits (3.7m) The stalk was 5 cubits and the ear 2 cubits. The ratio of the overall height of emmer in relation to the stalk is 7:5, the same ratio used to define the slope of one of the first true plane-sided pyramids.

The height of barley was 4 cubits (2m) The stalk was 3 cubits and the ear 1 cubit. The overall height in relation to the stalk is 4:3.

The 4:3 ratio often occurs in early Old Kingdom funerary architecture. For example a pyramid with sqd 5 1/4 defined slope (a ratio of 4:3), was a popular model. The slope of Khafra's pyramid had a 4:3 ratio. The ground plan of the funerary complex of the first king of Dyn 5, Userkaf, had a length / width ratio of 4:3 (noted by Verner, 2001: 274-5). The slope of his pyramid was defined by sqd 5 1/4, and the slopes of three Dyn 6 pyramids were defined by sqd 5 1/4. The sarcophagus chamber in Khufu's pyramid had a 10:20 (1:2) cubit proportion for the 2- dimensional floor area and a 15:20:25 (3:4:5) cubit proportion defined the 3-dimensional space.


The cubit used for the royal funerary complexes may have been part of this idealized world. We know from Dyn 6 textual evidence, the pyramids were thought in some mystic way, to be a manifestation of the king himself - the finished structure itself was divine. The royal funerary complex was an integral part of the king's afterlife that was an idealized, perfect world, and perhaps it was thought that only a 'perfect', idealized linear unit could be used to design and build it.

CT
Subject Author Posted

Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 04, 2007 08:32PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Dave L December 04, 2007 08:35PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 04, 2007 10:28PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

C Wayne Taylor December 05, 2007 06:10AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 05, 2007 04:19PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Dave L December 05, 2007 07:22AM

Edit of last post after time-out

Dave L December 05, 2007 08:25AM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Clive December 05, 2007 04:26PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Dave L December 05, 2007 04:42PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Clive December 05, 2007 04:48PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

L Cooper December 05, 2007 05:52PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Clive December 05, 2007 10:19PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

L Cooper December 06, 2007 06:47AM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Clive December 06, 2007 11:18PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Greg Reeder December 07, 2007 12:33PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

L Cooper December 09, 2007 08:27PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Clive December 11, 2007 08:49PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

fmetrol December 05, 2007 05:10PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Dave L December 05, 2007 05:19PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Dave L December 05, 2007 05:22PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

fmetrol December 05, 2007 05:30PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Dave L December 05, 2007 06:13PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

fmetrol December 06, 2007 06:06PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Clive December 05, 2007 05:25PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

fmetrol December 05, 2007 05:36PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Dave L December 05, 2007 06:20PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

fmetrol December 05, 2007 06:47PM

Re: Edit of last post after time-out

Clive December 05, 2007 10:22PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Kanga December 06, 2007 09:37AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 06, 2007 10:07PM

Re: Another simple question

Anthony December 04, 2007 09:07PM

Re: Another simple question

Clive December 04, 2007 11:25PM

Re: Another simple question

Sirfiroth December 05, 2007 02:28AM

Re: Another simple question

Clive December 05, 2007 04:38PM

Re: Another simple question

Sirfiroth December 05, 2007 11:51PM

Re: Another simple question

Clive December 06, 2007 01:48AM

Re: Another simple question

Sirfiroth December 06, 2007 09:28PM

Re: Another simple question

Clive December 06, 2007 10:45PM

Re: Another simple question

Dave L December 07, 2007 06:42AM

Re: Another simple question

Dave L December 06, 2007 10:07AM

Re: Another simple question

Sirfiroth December 06, 2007 10:29PM

Re: Another simple question

Dave L December 09, 2007 04:54PM

Re: Another simple question

Sirfiroth December 11, 2007 06:45PM

Re: Another simple question

Sirfiroth December 05, 2007 12:31AM

Another simple question for the "pros"

C Wayne Taylor December 05, 2007 06:20AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

cladking December 04, 2007 09:18PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 04, 2007 11:31PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Jammer December 05, 2007 10:08AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

MJ Thomas December 05, 2007 03:33AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 05, 2007 04:45PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Dave L December 05, 2007 04:51PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 05, 2007 05:04PM

Simple answer...

Morph December 05, 2007 06:22AM

Re: Simple answer...

fmetrol December 05, 2007 06:40AM

Re: Simple answer...

Morph December 08, 2007 06:31AM

Re: Simple answer...

fmetrol December 08, 2007 07:33AM

Re: Simple answer...

Morph December 08, 2007 08:50AM

Re: Simple answer...

Clive December 11, 2007 07:04PM

Re: Simple answer...

Jammer December 05, 2007 10:19AM

Re: Simple answer...

MJ Thomas December 05, 2007 12:30PM

Re: Simple answer...

Jammer December 05, 2007 03:22PM

Re: Simple answer...

MJ Thomas December 05, 2007 03:25PM

Re: Simple answer...

Dave L December 05, 2007 03:45PM

Re: Simple answer...

Kanga December 06, 2007 09:51AM

Important point

Anthony December 06, 2007 01:28PM

Re: Important point

MJ Thomas December 06, 2007 06:17PM

Re: Important point

fmetrol December 06, 2007 06:39PM

Re: Important point

MJ Thomas December 06, 2007 06:59PM

Re: Important point

Kanga December 06, 2007 07:51PM

Re: Important point

fmetrol December 06, 2007 08:37PM

Re: Important point

Pistol December 07, 2007 12:34AM

Re: Important point

fmetrol December 07, 2007 03:30AM

The 7 part cubit was the standard

Dave L December 06, 2007 08:53PM

Re: The 7 part cubit was the standard

fmetrol December 06, 2007 09:09PM

Re: The 7 part cubit was the standard

Dave L December 07, 2007 06:38AM

Re: The 7 part cubit was the standard

fmetrol December 07, 2007 08:08AM

Re: The 7 part cubit was the standard

Dave L December 09, 2007 04:57PM

Re: The 7 part cubit was the standard

Jammer December 07, 2007 01:33PM

Re: The 7 part cubit was the standard

Warwick L Nixon December 07, 2007 01:37PM

Re: The 7 part cubit was the standard

Jammer December 07, 2007 01:41PM

Re: The 7 part cubit was the standard

Warwick L Nixon December 07, 2007 01:55PM

Re: Important point

Clive December 06, 2007 09:51PM

Re: Important point

Greg Reeder December 07, 2007 12:31PM

Re: Important point

Clive December 11, 2007 07:12PM

Re: Important point

Kanga December 11, 2007 08:04PM

Layering speculations

Anthony December 11, 2007 08:10PM

Re: Layering speculations

Clive December 11, 2007 08:26PM

Re: Layering speculations

Anthony December 11, 2007 09:44PM

Re: Layering speculations

fmetrol December 11, 2007 08:30PM

Re: Layering speculations

Anthony December 11, 2007 09:43PM

Re: Layering speculations

fmetrol December 11, 2007 10:26PM

Re: Layering speculations

Clive December 12, 2007 12:23AM

Re: Layering speculations

fmetrol December 12, 2007 01:00AM

Re: Layering speculations

Clive December 12, 2007 06:00PM

Re: Layering speculations

fmetrol December 12, 2007 08:01PM

Re: Layering speculations

Clive December 12, 2007 10:22PM

Re: Layering speculations

fmetrol December 12, 2007 11:06PM

Re: Layering speculations

Clive December 12, 2007 11:57PM

Re: Layering speculations

MJ Thomas December 12, 2007 11:24PM

Re: Layering speculations

fmetrol December 12, 2007 11:37PM

Re: Layering speculations

MJ Thomas December 13, 2007 06:29AM

Re: Layering speculations

fmetrol December 13, 2007 07:06AM

Re: Layering speculations

Clive December 13, 2007 09:51AM

Re: Layering speculations

fmetrol December 13, 2007 10:14AM

A question on the evidence...

Anthony December 13, 2007 12:26PM

Re: A question on the evidence...

Chris Tedder December 13, 2007 01:00PM

Re: A question on the evidence...

Greg Reeder December 13, 2007 04:34PM

Re: A question on the evidence...

C Wayne Taylor December 13, 2007 05:11PM

Re: A question on the evidence...

fmetrol December 13, 2007 09:06PM

Re: A question on the evidence...

Chris Tedder December 14, 2007 04:01AM

Re: A question on the evidence...

fmetrol December 14, 2007 06:55AM

Re: A question on the evidence...

Greg Reeder December 14, 2007 09:39AM

Re: A question on the evidence...

Chris Tedder December 14, 2007 03:22PM

Re: A question on the evidence...

Greg Reeder December 14, 2007 04:05PM

Re: A question on the evidence...

Chris Tedder December 14, 2007 05:30PM

Re: A question on the evidence...

Anthony December 14, 2007 09:21PM

Re: A question on the evidence...

C Wayne Taylor December 15, 2007 05:34AM

Re: A question on the evidence...

fmetrol December 15, 2007 06:45AM

Re: A question on the evidence...

MJ Thomas December 15, 2007 10:45AM

Re: A question on the evidence...

fmetrol December 15, 2007 11:02AM

Re: A question on the evidence...

MJ Thomas December 15, 2007 01:23PM

Projecting modern thought onto ancient evidence

Anthony December 14, 2007 10:02AM

Re: Projecting modern thought onto ancient evidence

fmetrol December 14, 2007 10:19AM

ROFLMAO

Anthony December 14, 2007 10:27AM

Re: A question on the evidence...

MJ Thomas December 13, 2007 05:58PM

Re: A question on the evidence...

C Wayne Taylor December 14, 2007 05:53AM

Re: Layering speculations

Chris Tedder December 13, 2007 01:51PM

Re: Layering speculations

MJ Thomas December 13, 2007 02:05PM

Re: Layering speculations

Chris Tedder December 13, 2007 02:58PM

Re: Layering speculations

MJ Thomas December 14, 2007 09:13PM

Re: Layering speculations

Clive December 13, 2007 09:33AM

Re: Layering speculations

MJ Thomas December 12, 2007 10:57PM

Re: Layering speculations

Clive December 12, 2007 11:53PM

Re: Layering speculations

Hermione December 12, 2007 04:58AM

Re: Important point

Clive December 11, 2007 08:23PM

Re: Simple answer...

Morph December 08, 2007 06:15AM

Re: Simple answer...

Clive December 11, 2007 08:27PM

Re: Simple answer...

Clive December 05, 2007 05:07PM

Re: Simple answer...

Jammer December 07, 2007 01:45PM

Re: Simple answer...

Clive December 05, 2007 05:02PM

Re: Simple answer...

Greg Reeder December 07, 2007 01:10PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Warwick L Nixon December 05, 2007 11:17AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Dave L December 05, 2007 03:43PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Warwick L Nixon December 06, 2007 10:19AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Dave L December 06, 2007 12:52PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Warwick L Nixon December 07, 2007 01:25PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

rich December 05, 2007 03:14PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Pistol December 05, 2007 03:27PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Dave L December 05, 2007 03:35PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Warwick L Nixon December 06, 2007 10:29AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Dave L December 06, 2007 12:32PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Warwick L Nixon December 06, 2007 12:50PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 05, 2007 05:15PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Pistol December 05, 2007 07:50PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 05, 2007 10:31PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Pistol December 06, 2007 11:45AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

MJ Thomas December 06, 2007 06:35PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 06, 2007 11:43PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Jammer December 07, 2007 01:51PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 11, 2007 08:52PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

fmetrol December 11, 2007 09:27PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 12, 2007 12:43AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Dave L December 12, 2007 09:05AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

fmetrol December 12, 2007 09:51AM

Moderation note to sub-thread

Hermione December 12, 2007 10:00AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Jammer December 12, 2007 11:57AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 12, 2007 06:20PM

Knowledge versus Belief

Anthony December 12, 2007 06:28PM

Re: Knowledge versus Belief

cladking December 12, 2007 07:38PM

Re: Knowledge versus Belief

Anthony December 12, 2007 08:02PM

Re: Knowledge versus Belief

cladking December 12, 2007 08:21PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

fmetrol December 12, 2007 07:53PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Jammer December 14, 2007 08:43AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 14, 2007 11:43AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Warwick L Nixon December 14, 2007 11:49AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 14, 2007 01:08PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Warwick L Nixon December 14, 2007 01:15PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Jammer December 14, 2007 01:58PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Warwick L Nixon December 14, 2007 02:03PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Jammer December 14, 2007 02:23PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Warwick L Nixon December 14, 2007 02:33PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Kanga December 06, 2007 09:43AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Greg Reeder December 07, 2007 12:38PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

fmetrol December 07, 2007 05:33PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Greg Reeder December 07, 2007 05:59PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

fmetrol December 07, 2007 06:33PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

L Cooper December 08, 2007 08:08AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Dave L December 09, 2007 04:52PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Greg Reeder December 09, 2007 07:21PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 11, 2007 08:34PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

fmetrol December 11, 2007 08:39PM

Whatever...n/t

Clive December 11, 2007 08:50PM

Re: Whatever...n/t

fmetrol December 11, 2007 08:59PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 11, 2007 08:32PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

poundr17 December 08, 2007 04:18PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

fmetrol December 08, 2007 06:09PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

David Johnson December 15, 2007 09:43AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 15, 2007 11:36AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

David Johnson December 17, 2007 04:11AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Clive December 17, 2007 06:15PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Chris Tedder December 17, 2007 07:55PM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

Chris Tedder December 17, 2007 06:46AM

Re: Another simple question for the "pros"

fmetrol December 17, 2007 08:47AM

Re: Unrelated concepts

MJ Thomas December 06, 2007 06:28PM

Re: Unrelated concepts

Clive December 06, 2007 09:01PM

Re: Unrelated concepts

MJ Thomas December 07, 2007 09:07AM

Re: Unrelated concepts

Anthony December 06, 2007 09:53PM

Re: Unrelated concepts

L Cooper December 06, 2007 11:51PM

**Moderation note**

Hermione December 07, 2007 10:32AM



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