Home of the The Hall of Ma'at on the Internet
Home
Discussion Forums
Papers
Authors
Web Links

May 6, 2024, 12:01 am UTC    
October 18, 2007 02:40PM
Doug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are depicted as whites. However, there were
> two groups of "Libyans" identified by the ancient
> Egyptians. The first group was the Tjenehu, who
> were depicted by the Egyptians as brown like
> themselves. Only later, in the Middle Kingdom,
> around the 12th dynasty did they start depicting
> them as very pale, these are the Tjemehu.
> However, both groups still existed to the West of
> Egypt, with the Tjemehu in Northern Libya and the
> Tjenehu to the south, even though most Egyptian
> murals from later periods refer to the Tjemehu.

Er, no. The term /TmHw/+A1*B1:Z2 + T14 as a term for "Libyans" as a people, and for the "land of the Libyans" (with a A1*B1:Z2 determinative, along with a T14 throwstick (foreign) determinative) is the term used for Libya and its inhabitants since the Old Kingdom (Wb V:368).

The term /THnw/ + N25 (sandy hill=desert/hill country) determinative + T14 refers to the lands west of Egypt, and thus to the Western deserts of Libya (Wb V: 394). This term is also known from the Old Kingdom as a designation for both Libyans and Libya, so your explanation of MK origin of the "Tjemehu" is incorrect.

Further, the term /mSwS/, "Meshwesh," is yet another name for the Libyans, which arose in Dynasties 19 and 20, and which lasted into the Greek period (Wb II: 157). There's no indication these people were anything but the same Libyans of the /TmHw/ and /THnw/ variety. Considering the time difference amongst the terms, /mSwS/ may have been a designation by the Libyans themselves for their own tribe, which the ancient Egyptians of the New Kingdom adopted into their language. Their representations certainly do not change over the millennia, however (open robes, feathers in their braided hair, wearing tattoos and penis sheaths - all clothing known to be worn by Libyans since the Old Kingdom).

It also appears the terms for Libyans were interchangeable in ancient Egyptian: for example, battle reliefs at Karnak from the reign of Seti I of the 19th Dynasty depict the king in combat with Libyan masses; however the text only describes the Libyans as being /THnw/, one of the generic terms for "Libyan" in the Egyptian language, rather than any specific tribal designation.

Thus, all of these terms refer to the same lands and the same people of Libya: it's not unusual in ancient Egyptian for several terms to be used as designations for the same people.

Wb = Erman, A. and H. Grapow 1926. Wörterbuch der Aegyptischen Sprache. (7 Vols.) Leipzig: J. C. Hinrich.

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Doctoral Programme in Oriental Studies [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom

Subject Author Posted

mural of races - ciamarra theory

clem ciamarra October 12, 2007 11:49AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Khazar-khum October 12, 2007 01:02PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

clem ciamarra October 12, 2007 01:51PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

bernard October 12, 2007 04:40PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 13, 2007 07:39AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

bernard October 13, 2007 11:36AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Mihos October 19, 2007 02:31PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Mihos October 19, 2007 03:16PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Roxana Cooper October 22, 2007 12:40PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Khazar-khum October 12, 2007 05:19PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

clem ciamarra October 12, 2007 06:34PM

Aren't all origins of "Race" antiquated and outdated?

Jammer October 16, 2007 11:34AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 13, 2007 08:18AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Rick Baudé October 22, 2007 12:25PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Mihos October 23, 2007 01:22PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

fmetrol October 23, 2007 06:26PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 23, 2007 08:09AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Byrd October 13, 2007 12:05PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Roxana Cooper October 13, 2007 12:20PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 14, 2007 07:26PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Roxana Cooper October 15, 2007 09:40AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 15, 2007 08:44PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Roxana Cooper October 16, 2007 09:52AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 16, 2007 07:27PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Khazar-khum October 16, 2007 11:49PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 17, 2007 07:45AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 18, 2007 02:40PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 18, 2007 08:26PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 20, 2007 12:16PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Roxana Cooper October 22, 2007 12:39PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Khazar-khum October 22, 2007 02:53PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Roxana Cooper October 23, 2007 12:00PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Khazar-khum October 23, 2007 01:33PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 24, 2007 08:52AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 24, 2007 12:14PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 24, 2007 01:43PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 24, 2007 05:07PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 24, 2007 09:45PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg October 24, 2007 11:54PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 25, 2007 06:16AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

clem ciamarra October 26, 2007 08:49AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Mihos October 26, 2007 11:37AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 27, 2007 09:23AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 22, 2007 03:06PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Roxana Cooper October 17, 2007 11:25AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Doug October 17, 2007 11:30AM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Byrd October 17, 2007 04:06PM

Re: mural of races - ciamarra theory

Khazar-khum October 17, 2007 08:51PM



Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login