bernard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This image and the "supposed" meaning has been
> heavily reinterpreted and manipulated by
> Afrocentrists. I would not rely on their sites.
>
> here is an old posting by our own Katherine
> Griffis, the image links are gone I think.

I've reinstated these images from my other domain imagery sites:
>
> From:
> grifcon@

> 9;indsprin
> g.com (Katherine Griffis)
> Newsgroups:
> sci.archaeology,soc.culture.african.american,sci.a
> nthropology
> Subject: Re: The egyptians were black
> Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 15:20:41 GMT
> Organization: GRIFFIS CONSULTING
>
> On Sun, 16 May 1999 10:30:40 -0400,
> Kristopher/EOS
> <eoslive
> 5;@net-lin&#
> 107;.net> wrote:
>
> >Truth teller wrote:
> >>
> >> The question of the race of the
> egyptians should be mute,
> >> they themselves said that they were
> black, ancient
> >> eyewitnesses, such as the greeks
> ,Italians, ethiopians,
> >> described them as being black, they even
> left evidence of
> >> this in thier art.
> >
> >A) Learn to spell, learn to type.
> >
> > I could have sworn I'd seen Egyptian artwork
> that depicted
> >in a manner differing from "blacks." ("Black"
> being a fairly
> >meaningless term for purposes of heritage, for
> reasons that
> >should be well known on at least some of these
> newsgroups.)
>
> Hello Kristopher:
>
> Yes, the ancient Egyptians did have specific ways
> of distinguishing
> themselves from the Nubians, as well as all other
> groups. In the Tombs
> of Seti I and Ramses III, they noted this as part
> of the so-called "four
> races" motif, which in reality defined the peoples
> to the North, east,
> west and south of Egypt.
>
> Minutoli, in 1820, showed the rendering from the
> Seti I tomb, which can
> be viewed as follows:
>
>
>
> For the _actual view_ of the Seti I Tomb drawings,
> one may see
> the Harry Burton photographs from 1921 at
>
>
>
> with Hornung's commentary from his 1991 book, _The
> Tomb of Pharaoh Seti
> I/Das Grab Sethos I_, at
>
> (This website is now gone: Yahoo Geocities is a cruel master)
>
> There is a tendency by many Afrocentrists to rely
> upon a 1913 edition
> of Lepsius' Erganzungsband, pl. 48 rendering of
> the Ramses III motif,
> which was incorrectly rendered. As Frank Yurco
> pointed out in an
> earlier discussion on this same topic
>
> "...To make matters worse, the hieroglyph texts
> between these figures
> were garbled. The original scenes both in Sety I's
> tomb and in Ramesses
> III's tomb showed the Egyptians and the Kushites
> as distinctly
> different. Also, the hieroglyphs on the real
> walls are distributed
> between each of the four figures depicting each
> type. You can now view
> the real photographs of both the Sety I and
> Ramesses III walls in
> Hornung's volumes on the Valley of the Kings. I
> have been inside both
> tombs myself and have seen these scenes and their
> texts, and on the
> basis of this, the depiction in the Erganzungsband
> is not a real
> depiction of what is on the walls but rather a
> pastische, arranged from
> Lepsius' notes and garbled in the process. It is
> unfortunate that so
> many people have depended on this depiction as
> reality, when a look at
> the walls in both tombs shows that patently it is
> not reality."
> %%%%%%%%
>
> here is an old post from Frank Yurco (sadly now
> deceased)
> From:
> fjyurco@

> 9;idway.uc

> 04;icago.ed&#
> 117; (Frank Joseph Yurco)
> Subject: Re: WESTERN(WHITE)CIVILIZATION IS FOUNDED
> ON A BLACK AFRICAN CIVILIZATION.
> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: howard-nfs.uchicago.edu
> Message-ID:
> <ErIo60.2A
> ;t@midway
> 6;uchicago
> 6;edu>
> Sender: FJYurco
>
> Dear Paul,
>
> Those figures in the Lepsius Erganzungsband, pl.
> 48 are actually not
> Lepsius' work, but a re-edition done in 1913, as I
> showed in my article
> in Egypt in Africa (Bloomington, IN: Indiana
> University Press, 1997).
> To make matters worse, the hieroglyph texts
> between these figures were
> garbled. The original scenes both in Sety I's tomb
> and in Ramesses III's
> tomb showed the Egyptians and the Kushites as
> distinctly different.
> Also, the hieroglyphs on the real walls are
> distributed between each
> of the four figures depicting each type. You can
> now view the real
> photographs of both the Sety I and Ramesses III
> walls in Hornung's volumes
> on the Valley of the Kings. I have been inside
> both tombs myself and have
> seen these scenes and their texts, and on the
> basis of this, the depiction
> in the Erganzungsband is not a real depiction of
> what is on the walls but
> rather a pastische, arranged from Lepsius' notes
> and garbled in the
> process. It is unfortunate that so many people
> have depended on this
> depiction as reality, when a look at the walls in
> both tombs shows that
> patently it is not reality.
>
> Most sincerely,
>
> %%%%%%%%
>
> Yurco's paper is:
>
> Frank Yurco 1996. “ Two Tomb-Wall Painted Reliefs
> of Rameses III and Sety I and Ancient Nile Valley
> Populaition Diversity,” In T. Celenko, ed Egypt
> in Africa 109-111 Bloomington: Indianapolis Museum
> of Art.
>
> Erik Hornung’s recent publication of Ramesses
> III’s tomb scene of this relief demonstrates that,
> just as in the tomb relief of Sety I, four
> depictions each—of Egyptians, Rmt; Kushites,
> Nhsyw; Libyans, Tjhnw; and Syro-Palestinians,
> ‘Aamw, are shown, with one hieroglyph for each
> ethnic name written between every two figures.
> Each ethnic type was depicted with a distinctive
> complexion and in representative dress. Egyptians
> regularly were depicted as red-brown, distinctly
> lighter than the black Nhsy (Kushites).
> . . . .
>
> Current scholarship I Egyptology, not acknowledged
> often by Afrocentrists, has demonstrated that
> Egyptians were most closely related to Saharan
> Africans, culturally and linguistically (Hoffman
> 1991), and that such Mesopotamian influence as can
> be inferred, came through the Nile Delta town of
> Buto, as part of long-distance trade.

Hope this assists, Bernard.

Best --

Katherine

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Doctoral Programme in Oriental Studies [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom