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| October 06, 2001 04:34PM |
<HTML>I see you guys are going along fine here, so I don't want to throw a tangent wrench into this. But, if I may, I just want to close a point I'd started at the beginning of this thread where Sandy made a reply to it. This was the reply:
"<I>Avry, mortar was dated from the GP and it doesn't throw the GP back far into unknown history.
The dates for the mortar are slightly off the conventional time frame but this is believed to come from test contamination. So mortar dating supports the standard 4th D. date.
There's no need to have a longer construction time or redate the GP with the geopolymer theory -- and this is one reason it's so resented by alternative theory advocates who want the monument to date from Atlantis and be the product of high tech.
There are many people who don't want a simple solution to the way all that rock went up. There's an industry populated by people who want to make a big mystery out of it. An easy solution is not welcome and I've seen some of the resentment and lame excuses for butchering the facts of the theory by high tech advocates.</I>"
I was in no way implying the GP go far back into unknown history.
My suggestion is that it took c.75-100yrs to build sometime in the mid-3rd Millennium BCE. I do not for a minute think the GP was built long before the Old Kingdom AE arrived on the scene.
What I'm saying is ::: that <I>becasue</I> the GP's construction time is thought to be parallel in length with Khufu's reign, that many, many theories arise in order to explain the 'compressed' work detail. Here's what happens: There are the blocks per minute. Then the when/where/how/ a ramp was used. Then logistics. Injury. Size of work force. (I could make this list very very long - there is so much more to think about than just the superstructure of the GP). What follows is the ever common phrase, "Wow! How in the heck could these guys - using rudimentary tools and low tech (of the time) to construct this massive beauty in such a short time. Meanwhlie all our insights show that incredible (impossible) feats need to have been done in order to accomodate the parallel reign of Khufu."
And so, those who see this conclude, "There must have been some sort of heretofor unknown added catalyst which helped make this happen." What we then get is a myriad of theories, each one using his/her own idea to try to explain it. But....
Yes. 'But'. What is the simple and obvious answer? The original quest answered it for everyone -----> the work needed doesn't fit the work done, and it in fact outweighs it. So, it took longer.
About the dating of the mortar. I take it you've seen the outcomes? And what are the ranges? They aren't ALL within 25yrs of each other, now are they? No. Certainly not. Sure, they date to the time of the OK; no problem, I agree.
Now. Geop's. In truth, it's a great idea. I mean, what a solution! - concrete (let's call it what it is). It would explain the timeframe and many other problems associated with such a large project. Indeed, when I first heard it years ago, I thought, "This is worth listening to." That lasted for about 5 seconds. Generally, it's an interesting idea, but as far as a solid theory goes (punned), there are problems with every single part of it.
When Geop proponents (of the Cheops components!) say that the technology was lost to later Dyn's, well, I say a few things back:
1. This is such a simple technique. 100,000 people don't suddenly 'forget' how to make a gloop.
2. There is another reason they no longer built on that scale - it took too long, sucked up the economy, and stretched the tenacity of an epoch.
3. Being such a great technique, Cheops geops would have created a frenzy in the building of massive structures everywhere. "Hey, this is SO easy!" Every nome could have had a GP.
4. If it was so easy, why was Djedefre's site abandoned? And Zawiyet El-Aryan? and other's of the time? The answer is resources; people, and the time they gave to do these things - and that 'time' amounted to generations of devout believers in Hr as pharaoh (the living god), and to the ancient and awed understanding of the sun and sky - a faith strong enough to last through extended centuries of building in megalithic stone. (Dont' forget Khafre and Menkaure - those aren't little /\'s).
They got tired.
Sandy, you are quite versed in all the aspects of geops, and I commend your attachment and knowledge. But, I need to ask you (and I mean this in the kindest way), how would you grade yourself on knowing the context of the Old Kingdom?
Cheers,
Avry</HTML>
"<I>Avry, mortar was dated from the GP and it doesn't throw the GP back far into unknown history.
The dates for the mortar are slightly off the conventional time frame but this is believed to come from test contamination. So mortar dating supports the standard 4th D. date.
There's no need to have a longer construction time or redate the GP with the geopolymer theory -- and this is one reason it's so resented by alternative theory advocates who want the monument to date from Atlantis and be the product of high tech.
There are many people who don't want a simple solution to the way all that rock went up. There's an industry populated by people who want to make a big mystery out of it. An easy solution is not welcome and I've seen some of the resentment and lame excuses for butchering the facts of the theory by high tech advocates.</I>"
I was in no way implying the GP go far back into unknown history.
My suggestion is that it took c.75-100yrs to build sometime in the mid-3rd Millennium BCE. I do not for a minute think the GP was built long before the Old Kingdom AE arrived on the scene. What I'm saying is ::: that <I>becasue</I> the GP's construction time is thought to be parallel in length with Khufu's reign, that many, many theories arise in order to explain the 'compressed' work detail. Here's what happens: There are the blocks per minute. Then the when/where/how/ a ramp was used. Then logistics. Injury. Size of work force. (I could make this list very very long - there is so much more to think about than just the superstructure of the GP). What follows is the ever common phrase, "Wow! How in the heck could these guys - using rudimentary tools and low tech (of the time) to construct this massive beauty in such a short time. Meanwhlie all our insights show that incredible (impossible) feats need to have been done in order to accomodate the parallel reign of Khufu."
And so, those who see this conclude, "There must have been some sort of heretofor unknown added catalyst which helped make this happen." What we then get is a myriad of theories, each one using his/her own idea to try to explain it. But....
Yes. 'But'. What is the simple and obvious answer? The original quest answered it for everyone -----> the work needed doesn't fit the work done, and it in fact outweighs it. So, it took longer.
About the dating of the mortar. I take it you've seen the outcomes? And what are the ranges? They aren't ALL within 25yrs of each other, now are they? No. Certainly not. Sure, they date to the time of the OK; no problem, I agree.
Now. Geop's. In truth, it's a great idea. I mean, what a solution! - concrete (let's call it what it is). It would explain the timeframe and many other problems associated with such a large project. Indeed, when I first heard it years ago, I thought, "This is worth listening to." That lasted for about 5 seconds. Generally, it's an interesting idea, but as far as a solid theory goes (punned), there are problems with every single part of it.
When Geop proponents (of the Cheops components!) say that the technology was lost to later Dyn's, well, I say a few things back:
1. This is such a simple technique. 100,000 people don't suddenly 'forget' how to make a gloop.
2. There is another reason they no longer built on that scale - it took too long, sucked up the economy, and stretched the tenacity of an epoch.
3. Being such a great technique, Cheops geops would have created a frenzy in the building of massive structures everywhere. "Hey, this is SO easy!" Every nome could have had a GP.
4. If it was so easy, why was Djedefre's site abandoned? And Zawiyet El-Aryan? and other's of the time? The answer is resources; people, and the time they gave to do these things - and that 'time' amounted to generations of devout believers in Hr as pharaoh (the living god), and to the ancient and awed understanding of the sun and sky - a faith strong enough to last through extended centuries of building in megalithic stone. (Dont' forget Khafre and Menkaure - those aren't little /\'s).
They got tired.
Sandy, you are quite versed in all the aspects of geops, and I commend your attachment and knowledge. But, I need to ask you (and I mean this in the kindest way), how would you grade yourself on knowing the context of the Old Kingdom?
Cheers,
Avry</HTML>
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