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May 17, 2024, 7:00 am UTC    
May 13, 2018 08:37AM
Hi Chris,

Thanks for your research on this – much appreciated. I hadn’t been aware of Shmakov’s comments before.

This little excursion into “itn” has been enlightening. There are evidently many levels to this question – starting with the observation that it seems it wasn’t until the MK that concern with the “disk” truly came to the fore, as evidenced by its fairly extensive referencing in the CT’s and lack of same in the PT’s. The P 356 example you have pointed to would appear to be the only such PT usage.

When “itn” or “iTn” is referenced as simply the ‘solar’ “disk”, it is almost entirely in the context of this or that entity described as being “within” the “disk”. In addition, when the word is spelled “iTn” and appears as an adjunct part of a place name or name of a god, it will just about always appear without the N5 determinative – see, for example, CT Spells 164, 173, 463, 545, 696, 1012, and 1029. Done as a “false archaism”, no doubt, as you point out, but to me this still begs the question of why the N5 glyph was left out in the archaic texts – such as is the case in P 356 Col. 58. True, determinatives were not regularly used at all times, nor by all scribes, but the abbreviated word “Tn” with the N5 determinative was used in Col. 55 of this same P 356 text – where it is translated by Allen as “Sun”. He translates this passage section, “rowing the Sun in the Dayboat…”. My point with this follows along the lines of Faulkner, who comments on the “obscure” meaning of “iTn” in CT Sp 463, where this word forms a part of the name “iTn-wr”. This is apparently a similar context to that of Col. 58 of P 356, which phrase Allen translates as “great disk”. (The word “wr” is here spelled by glyph G36 only, there is no D21 glyph, which is curiously contrary to how it is spelled elsewhere on this same antechamber south wall.)

My further point being that at this earlier time in which the PT’s were written, exactly what concept “iTn” in “iTn-wr” may have been referring to is not completely clear. I find the lack of the N5 determinative in this word to perhaps be instructive – akin, in a way, to the “dog that barked in the night”. As I have said before, I view many of these texts to have largely circumpolar meanings, meanings which were veiled in the metaphoric language (poetry?) of the time. I find it clear that P 356 falls into this category, even given the many lacunae.

I come to this conclusion from the findings that P 356 makes reference to "Mskhnt" (or Mskhtyw?), to the Imperishable Stars, to the Field of Offerings, to the Enneads, to the “god’s sedan chair”, to Pepi being on his “path”, to the Council awaiting Pepi’s arrival, etc. All of these speak circumpolar context as loudly as they can using the vernacular found throughout these texts. This would then strongly imply that "iTn-wr” is here also a factor that is to be understood within the context of a circumpolar location. It would therefore appear to be a reference to a ring or “disk” situated about the celestial north pole – with the north pole at the time located very near to the star Thuban (Alpha Draconis). This could explain why the N5 determinative was used in Col. 55, where the “iTn” term allows for a duality of meaning (ie, solar and polar), while it was not used in Col. 58 - where its meaning was more specifically tied to only a polar context. This “ring”, I would then suppose, referred to the circuit made by a specific star or asterism as it revolved about the pole both during the night, and during the year.

There also appears to be a marked similarity of symbolism between the P 356 text and the various “itnws” spells of the CT’s – refer to the list of spells I gave a few paragraphs above. In the section of P 356 under discussion, we see references to “hair” and to Hathor – and this is just as is seen in the “itnws” spells. And in both cases, these being in the context of the King’s having arrived at the polar region. “Pepi has parted the two locks of hair and joined together the two parts of hair”, this from Allen’s P 356 translation. In the next line Allen has, “This Pepi shall establish your ornament on the sun’s brow”, and in a footnote Allen clarifies that the “your” refers to a female goddess, although he doesn’t say which goddess this may be. I think it likely, if not certain, that the usage here of the F13 “horns” glyph for “parted” (as in “separated”) and also its usage for the word “brow”, was no doubt intended to immediately conjure up the image of Hathor in the minds of those involved with this liturgy. A similar juxtaposition occurs in Utt 335 §546: “..those who see me adorned with my fillet from the brow (“wpt” – spelled with F13) of Re! My kilt which is on me is Hathor…”. Or perhaps even more directly, from Utt. 405 §705: “For I am that eye of yours which is on the horns (“wpt”) of Hathor”.

This connection is further enhanced by the usage of the word “XkrT”, which Allen translates as “ornament”. The word can also mean “female hairdresser”, thus providing a play on words that broadens the associations of the text, this type of punning being a literary device constantly at play in the PT’s.

Regarding the point that you made concerning CT Spell 335 Bk IV, §293c, where you said, “itn (is) written (here) with X1 (=t) but no N5 sun det. (Refer to) T1Be, outer coffin of mnTw-Htp from Thebes”. This sole occurrence seems to me to be a case of the exception proving the rule. Of all the instances in the CT’s where the term “itn” (or “iTn”) is standing alone and referring to simply a “disk”, this may be the only time when the N5 determinative was not used by the scribe. It would seem that it was the archaicized “iTn” usages that were regularly written without the solar determinative. In the PT’s, the name of “Re” is at times written with the N5 determinative, and at times written without. I must say that I do not see any clear correlation here to what N5 usage seems to be a more primarily solar context as opposed to what usage seems to be a more primarily polar context. One possible explanation for this could be that they saw the circumpolar manifestation of Re as being located either precisely at, or extremely near to, the pole itself – meaning that the use or non-use of the N5 determinative was seen as equally appropriate, and therefore as equally discretionary.

For those who may not already be aware of the following online locations, de Buck’s transcriptions of the Coffin Texts can be found here: [ancientworldonline.blogspot.com], and Faulkner’s Coffin Text translations can be found online via this link: [archive.org] Leclant’s transcriptions are not yet available online. J.P. Allen’s translation of the Pyramid Texts used to be available online, but I couldn’t find it just now. Perhaps someone else has an URL for it.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2018 09:03AM by L Cooper.
Subject Author Posted

Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hermione April 04, 2018 02:28AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 04, 2018 09:32AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Warwick L Nixon April 04, 2018 11:14AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 04, 2018 01:13PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Warwick L Nixon April 04, 2018 02:11PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hermione April 04, 2018 02:20PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 04, 2018 08:30PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 04, 2018 08:39PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 08:50AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 05, 2018 01:15PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Warwick L Nixon April 05, 2018 07:48PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 08:38PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 08:55AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 05, 2018 01:24PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Warwick L Nixon April 05, 2018 07:50PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 08:57PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 08:56PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 05, 2018 09:50PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 06, 2018 01:10AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Mark Heaton April 04, 2018 02:27PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Warwick L Nixon April 04, 2018 05:34PM

Re: The upper Grand Gallery had a functional role

Mark Heaton April 05, 2018 03:11PM

Re: The upper Grand Gallery had a functional role

Warwick L Nixon April 05, 2018 07:45PM

Re: The door to the upper Grand Gallery

Mark Heaton April 06, 2018 01:28AM

Re: The door to the upper Grand Gallery

Warwick L Nixon April 09, 2018 11:21AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Mark Heaton April 09, 2018 12:49PM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Warwick L Nixon April 09, 2018 01:45PM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 12:36AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Warwick L Nixon April 10, 2018 12:49AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 01:30AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Warwick L Nixon April 10, 2018 08:34AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Hans April 10, 2018 10:43AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Hans April 10, 2018 10:41AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Warwick L Nixon April 10, 2018 11:38AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Hans April 10, 2018 12:05PM

Re: Warwick's doorway to the pyramids?

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 03:37PM

Re: Warwick's doorway to thrdynastico protstane pyramids?

Warwick L Nixon April 10, 2018 04:27PM

Re: Warwick's doorway to thrdynastico protstane pyramids?

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 04:48PM

Re: Warwick's doorway to thrdynastico protstane pyramids?

Hans April 11, 2018 12:05AM

Re: Warwick's doorway to thrdynastico protstane pyramids?

Warwick L Nixon April 11, 2018 10:32AM

Re: The internal consistency of the internal space

Mark Heaton April 11, 2018 02:14PM

Re: The internal consistency of the internal space

Warwick L Nixon April 11, 2018 02:39PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 11, 2018 03:10PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Byrd April 11, 2018 06:41PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 11, 2018 06:49PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 12, 2018 02:07AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

L Cooper April 12, 2018 08:45AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

cladking April 12, 2018 09:45AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Hans April 12, 2018 05:32PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 12, 2018 10:06AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 12, 2018 02:01AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Byrd April 13, 2018 04:51PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 14, 2018 01:27AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 14, 2018 12:04PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 14, 2018 02:43PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 16, 2018 10:15AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Hans April 16, 2018 11:20AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 16, 2018 12:39PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 16, 2018 02:57PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 16, 2018 03:28PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 16, 2018 04:46PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Hans April 16, 2018 05:04PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 16, 2018 05:55PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Hans April 16, 2018 06:16PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 17, 2018 08:04AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 11:22AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 17, 2018 08:38PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 11:28PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 17, 2018 11:37AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 11:47AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Hans April 16, 2018 05:01PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 12:29PM

Re: The internal consistency of the internal space

Hans April 11, 2018 02:54PM

Khufu's Horizon

Mark Heaton April 11, 2018 04:25PM

Re: Khufu's Horizon

Hans April 11, 2018 09:24PM

Re: Khufu's Horizon

Mark Heaton April 12, 2018 02:04AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Hans April 09, 2018 05:01PM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 01:28AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Hans April 10, 2018 10:38AM

Re: The sarcophagus

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 03:09AM

Re: The sarcophagus

Hans April 10, 2018 10:46AM

Re: The sarcophagus

Warwick L Nixon April 10, 2018 12:20PM

Rejecting Petrie?

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 03:21PM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 04:35PM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Hans April 11, 2018 12:09AM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Warwick L Nixon April 11, 2018 11:01AM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Hans April 11, 2018 11:07AM

Re: Scarabs

Mark Heaton April 11, 2018 02:58PM

Re: Scarabs

Hans April 11, 2018 09:34PM

Re: Scarabs

Mark Heaton April 12, 2018 02:19AM

Re: Scarabs

Hans April 12, 2018 05:25PM

Re: A proof without Pyramid Texts

Mark Heaton April 13, 2018 02:15AM

Re: A proof without Pyramid Texts

Hans April 13, 2018 11:23AM

Re: A proof without Pyramid Texts

Mark Heaton April 14, 2018 01:31AM

Re: Scarabs

L Cooper April 16, 2018 08:45AM

Re: Scarabs

Hans April 16, 2018 10:09AM

Re: Scarabs

Mark Heaton April 16, 2018 03:01PM

Re: Scarabs

L Cooper April 16, 2018 07:34PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Mark Heaton April 17, 2018 12:59AM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Pistol April 17, 2018 08:11AM

Snakes in the shafts???

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 11:12AM

Re: Snakes in the shafts???

Pistol April 17, 2018 08:00PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Byrd April 17, 2018 11:33AM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Hermione April 17, 2018 02:05PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 02:19PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Hermione April 17, 2018 02:35PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 02:42PM

Re: Sirius the dog star

Mark Heaton April 18, 2018 01:50PM

Re: Sirius the dog star

Warwick L Nixon April 18, 2018 07:13PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Pistol April 17, 2018 03:32PM

Re: Aten

Chris Tedder April 19, 2018 05:45AM

Re: Aten

L Cooper April 19, 2018 12:30PM

Re: Aten

Warwick L Nixon April 19, 2018 01:18PM

Re: Aten

Chris Tedder April 19, 2018 01:36PM

Re: Aten

Warwick L Nixon April 19, 2018 02:29PM

Re: Aten

Chris Tedder April 22, 2018 06:18AM

Re: Aten

Warwick L Nixon April 23, 2018 12:09PM

Re: Aten

L Cooper April 19, 2018 04:55PM

Re: Aten

M. Williams April 19, 2018 07:08PM

Re: Aten

L Cooper April 20, 2018 09:21AM

Re: Aten

M. Williams April 21, 2018 02:25AM

Re: Aten Imperishable stars

Chris Tedder April 22, 2018 08:55AM

Re: Aten Imperishable stars

L Cooper April 23, 2018 10:48AM

Re: Aten Imperishable stars

Warwick L Nixon April 23, 2018 11:27AM

Re: Aten Imperishable stars

M. Williams May 16, 2018 11:56PM

Re: Aten

L Cooper May 03, 2018 09:27AM

Re: Aten

L Cooper May 04, 2018 06:13AM

Re: Aten

Warwick L Nixon May 08, 2018 12:00PM

Re: Aten

Hans May 08, 2018 01:51PM

Re: Aten

Chris Tedder May 08, 2018 02:05PM

Re: Aten

L Cooper May 13, 2018 08:37AM

**Moderation note to sub-thread**

Hermione April 13, 2018 12:19PM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Hermione April 11, 2018 02:24AM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Hans April 11, 2018 09:19AM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Hermione April 11, 2018 10:07AM

Re: Further evaluation of basalt ball

Mark Heaton April 12, 2018 03:48PM

Re: Further evaluation of basalt ball

Hans April 12, 2018 05:39PM

Re: Further evaluation of basalt ball

Mark Heaton April 14, 2018 02:25AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 10:19AM

The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 05, 2018 01:44PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Warwick L Nixon April 05, 2018 07:55PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 05, 2018 08:11PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 05, 2018 09:05PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 05, 2018 09:30PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 06, 2018 01:20AM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 06, 2018 08:47AM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 06, 2018 07:46PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 06, 2018 09:11PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 06, 2018 11:47PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 06, 2018 09:26AM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 06, 2018 07:51PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 06, 2018 09:06PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 06, 2018 11:51PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 07, 2018 08:18AM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 07, 2018 10:58AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Principia April 06, 2018 11:58AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

M. Williams April 07, 2018 11:59PM



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