Home of the The Hall of Ma'at on the Internet
Home
Discussion Forums
Papers
Authors
Web Links

May 17, 2024, 11:38 am UTC    
April 19, 2018 12:30PM
Hi Chris - Thanks for your interest.

P 356 does appear in both Faulkner and Sethe – see Utt. 511 §1155b. Faulkner (p. 187) translates this passage as “the Horizon dwellers will come to me…”. Allen, p. 154, translates it as “those of the Akhet shall come to him…”. You can see the actual glyphs in Sethe, V. II p. 145 at the beginning of line 1155b where the word is written “iwtn-f”. Note that there is no “sun” determinative. [www3.lib.uchicago.edu]
I don’t know where the translation you cited comes from, but I think it is off the mark.

This line can also be found in Maspero’s Inscriptions, p. 202 - [archive.org]

I based my statement that the word "itn" meaning “sun-disk” does not occur in the PT’s on Hannig’s Worterbuch I p. 236, where the only OK example he cites is that from the Abusir Papyri that I referred to.

As to your question regarding an explanation of the circumpolar contexts of the texts I cited – this is a much more complicated undertaking as it involves many different layers and strands of context. I am currently working on a detailed paper that goes into much of this, but I will try here to briefly touch on some of the factors.

Starting with CT Sp 47 – in line 205 we see that the dead king will “ascend to the sky on the day of the Six-day festival” where he will appear “as Lord of the West at the head of the gods”. As with the many examples in the PT’s, this ascension is clearly one in which the deceased is making his journey to the stars of the circumpolar region. I trust that you are familiar enough with these texts and don’t need this to be elaborated upon. As in the PT’s, there is here also mention of the Two Conclaves – a corroborative reference to the fact that the context is circumpolar.

The situation is by coincidence actually quite similar to that seen in Utt 511 mentioned above. If one looks further at passage §1155, one reads, “Dw3w will come to me rejoicing and the gods in homage; the Horizon dwellers will come to me on their faces and the Imperishable stars bowing down”, and then later in §1159 the king says, “I will be as effective as Spd-wr, I will preside at the head of the Two Conclaves..”

In Sp 47, then, I believe that we can then question exactly who the god is that is being referred to in line 208, where it says “The god who is in his horizon awakes, acclamation is given to him (ie, the deceased - and now risen - king) in the Two Conclaves”. If the context is circumpolar, and if the “god who is in his horizon” is not the solar Re, then the king’s “seat within the Disk (itn)” may in fact be referring to something quite different that the king’s seat in the (so-called) solar bark of Re. The “disk” in this context may have a totally different set of associations than a reference to the “sun’s disk”.

Sp 50 bears some of the same reference points as Sp 47, but it also touches on a number of other ‘mythological’ circumpolar associations. I can’t here go into all of this, but will just mention some of those regarding the place name of “Ninsu” (line 225). In Sp 335 b, Part I (line 210) we have,

“I have bathed in those two very great lagoons which are in Ninsu..Who is he? He is Re himself. What are the two very great lagoons? They are the Lake of Natron and the Lake of M’3t. I proceed on the path which I know in the direction of the Island of the Just. What is it? It is the path on which my father Atum went when he proceeded to the Field of Rushes. I arrive at the Land of the Horizon dwellers in the sky”.

Many times, in the PT’s the Field of Rushes is closely associated with the circumpolar region and with the Imperishable Stars, if not even clearly identified as being in the circumpolar region. I believe you are already familiar with such references in the PT's.

In Sp 335b Part II (line 325) we have Ninsu associated with Mskt, “As for the Mskt, it is the knknt in Ninsu”, (Mskt, itself, having numerous associations with the northern stars – see Sp. 383 and Sp 789, or Utt 475.). Further – in CT Sp 337 we have Ninsu associated with “the Great Tribunal which is in On”, with this “Great Tribunal” being “in the great ploughing of the land in Ninsu.” (Also see Sp 26) And yet further in Sp 337, there is a connection of Ninsu with the Two Conclaves, “Horus is joyful, and the Two Conclaves are pleased at it , And all of this evidently being associated with the battles between Horus and Seth (Ursa Major and Ursa Minor) – “I restored the Eye after it had been injured on that day when the (two) Rivals fought” (Sp 335 a, Part I line 232).

Sp 186, 220, 225 (which I inadvertently omitted previously), and 1029 – all seem to revolve around a common myth, whatever it was – but variations of which included a reference to having a meal under a “sycamore tree which is south of Nefrusi” and “under the tresses of ‘Itn-ws’” (Sp 186, line 87). In Sp 220, line 203 we have “I travel upon that upper road of the sky and that lower road of the earth north of ‘Itn-ws, I eat on the Field of Offerings, on the Lake of Turquoise…” In Sp 225 it is “may you sit under the branches of the myrrh tree near Hathor who is pre-eminent in ‘Itn-ws’ when she travels to On….” (“Hathor, Mistress of the northern sky” – Sp 332). Sp 1029 is indeed written more in what would on the surface appear to be a solar context, but here, too, I would argue that as a result of the other “itn-ws’ references I feel it safe to assume this also has a part of its roots in a more circumpolar setting. The rising in the east in these texts, more often than not, referring to the movement of Re in his circuit around the pole to the eastern side of the northern night sky. The language used allows of these two separate interpretations – one solar, and one circumpolar. Each being valid to the participant, depending on either one's need or desire for this or that contextual association. To get more of a sense of all this one can research in the PT’s those texts that deal with the Field of Rushes, the Field of Offerings, and the associations connected with the usage of the sycamore tree and turquoise symbol, etc. The Horus and Seth association with the Dippers is one I feel should be somewhat self-evident - but if not, there is literature out there which goes into it - although not all get it right as to which is which.

There is much, much more I could go into, but I don't want, nor do I have the time, to do that here.
Subject Author Posted

Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hermione April 04, 2018 02:28AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 04, 2018 09:32AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Warwick L Nixon April 04, 2018 11:14AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 04, 2018 01:13PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Warwick L Nixon April 04, 2018 02:11PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hermione April 04, 2018 02:20PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 04, 2018 08:30PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 04, 2018 08:39PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 08:50AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 05, 2018 01:15PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Warwick L Nixon April 05, 2018 07:48PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 08:38PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 08:55AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 05, 2018 01:24PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Warwick L Nixon April 05, 2018 07:50PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 08:57PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 08:56PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

cladking April 05, 2018 09:50PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 06, 2018 01:10AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Mark Heaton April 04, 2018 02:27PM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Warwick L Nixon April 04, 2018 05:34PM

Re: The upper Grand Gallery had a functional role

Mark Heaton April 05, 2018 03:11PM

Re: The upper Grand Gallery had a functional role

Warwick L Nixon April 05, 2018 07:45PM

Re: The door to the upper Grand Gallery

Mark Heaton April 06, 2018 01:28AM

Re: The door to the upper Grand Gallery

Warwick L Nixon April 09, 2018 11:21AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Mark Heaton April 09, 2018 12:49PM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Warwick L Nixon April 09, 2018 01:45PM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 12:36AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Warwick L Nixon April 10, 2018 12:49AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 01:30AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Warwick L Nixon April 10, 2018 08:34AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Hans April 10, 2018 10:43AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Hans April 10, 2018 10:41AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Warwick L Nixon April 10, 2018 11:38AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Hans April 10, 2018 12:05PM

Re: Warwick's doorway to the pyramids?

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 03:37PM

Re: Warwick's doorway to thrdynastico protstane pyramids?

Warwick L Nixon April 10, 2018 04:27PM

Re: Warwick's doorway to thrdynastico protstane pyramids?

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 04:48PM

Re: Warwick's doorway to thrdynastico protstane pyramids?

Hans April 11, 2018 12:05AM

Re: Warwick's doorway to thrdynastico protstane pyramids?

Warwick L Nixon April 11, 2018 10:32AM

Re: The internal consistency of the internal space

Mark Heaton April 11, 2018 02:14PM

Re: The internal consistency of the internal space

Warwick L Nixon April 11, 2018 02:39PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 11, 2018 03:10PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Byrd April 11, 2018 06:41PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 11, 2018 06:49PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 12, 2018 02:07AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

L Cooper April 12, 2018 08:45AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

cladking April 12, 2018 09:45AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Hans April 12, 2018 05:32PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 12, 2018 10:06AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 12, 2018 02:01AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Byrd April 13, 2018 04:51PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 14, 2018 01:27AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 14, 2018 12:04PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 14, 2018 02:43PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 16, 2018 10:15AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Hans April 16, 2018 11:20AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 16, 2018 12:39PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 16, 2018 02:57PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 16, 2018 03:28PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 16, 2018 04:46PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Hans April 16, 2018 05:04PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 16, 2018 05:55PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Hans April 16, 2018 06:16PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 17, 2018 08:04AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 11:22AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Pistol April 17, 2018 08:38PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 11:28PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Mark Heaton April 17, 2018 11:37AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 11:47AM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Hans April 16, 2018 05:01PM

Re: The sun represented as a sphere

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 12:29PM

Re: The internal consistency of the internal space

Hans April 11, 2018 02:54PM

Khufu's Horizon

Mark Heaton April 11, 2018 04:25PM

Re: Khufu's Horizon

Hans April 11, 2018 09:24PM

Re: Khufu's Horizon

Mark Heaton April 12, 2018 02:04AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Hans April 09, 2018 05:01PM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 01:28AM

Re: The doorway to the upper Grand Gallery

Hans April 10, 2018 10:38AM

Re: The sarcophagus

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 03:09AM

Re: The sarcophagus

Hans April 10, 2018 10:46AM

Re: The sarcophagus

Warwick L Nixon April 10, 2018 12:20PM

Rejecting Petrie?

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 03:21PM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Mark Heaton April 10, 2018 04:35PM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Hans April 11, 2018 12:09AM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Warwick L Nixon April 11, 2018 11:01AM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Hans April 11, 2018 11:07AM

Re: Scarabs

Mark Heaton April 11, 2018 02:58PM

Re: Scarabs

Hans April 11, 2018 09:34PM

Re: Scarabs

Mark Heaton April 12, 2018 02:19AM

Re: Scarabs

Hans April 12, 2018 05:25PM

Re: A proof without Pyramid Texts

Mark Heaton April 13, 2018 02:15AM

Re: A proof without Pyramid Texts

Hans April 13, 2018 11:23AM

Re: A proof without Pyramid Texts

Mark Heaton April 14, 2018 01:31AM

Re: Scarabs

L Cooper April 16, 2018 08:45AM

Re: Scarabs

Hans April 16, 2018 10:09AM

Re: Scarabs

Mark Heaton April 16, 2018 03:01PM

Re: Scarabs

L Cooper April 16, 2018 07:34PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Mark Heaton April 17, 2018 12:59AM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Pistol April 17, 2018 08:11AM

Snakes in the shafts???

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 11:12AM

Re: Snakes in the shafts???

Pistol April 17, 2018 08:00PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Byrd April 17, 2018 11:33AM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Hermione April 17, 2018 02:05PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 02:19PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Hermione April 17, 2018 02:35PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Warwick L Nixon April 17, 2018 02:42PM

Re: Sirius the dog star

Mark Heaton April 18, 2018 01:50PM

Re: Sirius the dog star

Warwick L Nixon April 18, 2018 07:13PM

Re: The duality of spherical representations

Pistol April 17, 2018 03:32PM

Re: Aten

Chris Tedder April 19, 2018 05:45AM

Re: Aten

L Cooper April 19, 2018 12:30PM

Re: Aten

Warwick L Nixon April 19, 2018 01:18PM

Re: Aten

Chris Tedder April 19, 2018 01:36PM

Re: Aten

Warwick L Nixon April 19, 2018 02:29PM

Re: Aten

Chris Tedder April 22, 2018 06:18AM

Re: Aten

Warwick L Nixon April 23, 2018 12:09PM

Re: Aten

L Cooper April 19, 2018 04:55PM

Re: Aten

M. Williams April 19, 2018 07:08PM

Re: Aten

L Cooper April 20, 2018 09:21AM

Re: Aten

M. Williams April 21, 2018 02:25AM

Re: Aten Imperishable stars

Chris Tedder April 22, 2018 08:55AM

Re: Aten Imperishable stars

L Cooper April 23, 2018 10:48AM

Re: Aten Imperishable stars

Warwick L Nixon April 23, 2018 11:27AM

Re: Aten Imperishable stars

M. Williams May 16, 2018 11:56PM

Re: Aten

L Cooper May 03, 2018 09:27AM

Re: Aten

L Cooper May 04, 2018 06:13AM

Re: Aten

Warwick L Nixon May 08, 2018 12:00PM

Re: Aten

Hans May 08, 2018 01:51PM

Re: Aten

Chris Tedder May 08, 2018 02:05PM

Re: Aten

L Cooper May 13, 2018 08:37AM

**Moderation note to sub-thread**

Hermione April 13, 2018 12:19PM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Hermione April 11, 2018 02:24AM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Hans April 11, 2018 09:19AM

Re: Photograph of Basalt Pounding Ball etc

Hermione April 11, 2018 10:07AM

Re: Further evaluation of basalt ball

Mark Heaton April 12, 2018 03:48PM

Re: Further evaluation of basalt ball

Hans April 12, 2018 05:39PM

Re: Further evaluation of basalt ball

Mark Heaton April 14, 2018 02:25AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Hans April 05, 2018 10:19AM

The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 05, 2018 01:44PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Warwick L Nixon April 05, 2018 07:55PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 05, 2018 08:11PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 05, 2018 09:05PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 05, 2018 09:30PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 06, 2018 01:20AM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 06, 2018 08:47AM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 06, 2018 07:46PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 06, 2018 09:11PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 06, 2018 11:47PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 06, 2018 09:26AM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 06, 2018 07:51PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 06, 2018 09:06PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 06, 2018 11:51PM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

cladking April 07, 2018 08:18AM

Re: The Mother of ALL Anomalies.

Hans April 07, 2018 10:58AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

Principia April 06, 2018 11:58AM

Re: Draft working paper for comments: Analysis of the ScanPyramids results

M. Williams April 07, 2018 11:59PM



Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login