Dave Lightbody Wrote:
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> I disagree with the assumption that the symbol
> originated with the sun's path. Im my opinion it
> originates with the ropes used to designate sacred
> spaces on the ground during the establishment of
> new temples and tombs.

The rope in the symbol may very well stem from how they designated sacred places but the symbol itself - "circle" (shen/cartouche) - originated with the Sun´s path:

Quote

The Egyptian word for "cartouche", "circle", refers to the circle of the world, and the combination of the cartouche with the king´s name inside it originally indicated that the king has dominion over the whole world.
(Middle Egyptian, J.P. Allen, p. 65 - emphasis mine)

> It was eventually extended to include all of the
> pharaoh's domain and all of the world encircled,
> but these ideas were later extensions of the
> original meanings.

Not according to Allen.

> The shen protects that which is within. That is
> it's basic meaning.

It stands to reason that the actual symbol, the rope, doesn´t protect against anything. It is the concept of the symbol - in this case "an area under the protection of the Sun God - that is the real protective element.

> The main issue you have that is confusing is that,
> for example with the Tuthmosis III example, you
> are looking at the much later evolved meanings
> rather than the earlier fundamental meanings. I
> have compiled a catalogue of all shens used in art
> in the Old Kingdom. There are only 23 separate
> places where the shen appears in the ED and OK,
> 1-6th dynasties, and none of these are on/include
> winged sun discs. The winged sun disk (Horus the
> Behdite) is a not associated with the shen during
> the OK, that is a later development.

We should not attach to much importance to the wings of the disk, or the disk itself, in this discussion. The Sun God rose to prominence during the OK and, yes, he evolved further after that. But the Sun God manifested himself as the Sun throughout AE history - regardless of how he was depicted.

The Sun God was a part of the AE cosmology since the earliest of times (shen-sign in Dynasty 0) but not as the most prominent power - that part was reserved for Horus (the oldest of the King names).
Only when the Sun increased in prominence in Dynasty 4 (chapels on the east side) do we find the first cartouche. The stela from Sneferu´s Bent Pyramid is an interesting example from this transition period - the cartouche inside a serekh:
Horus as the great power and the Sun God as defining an area over which the King rules under his (and Horus´) protection.

> I am concluding that the association with the
> winged sun disk and the more complex meanings are
> a later developments.

AE religion is complex - always was.

To see the cartouche as a magical rope that protects is, imo, a simplistic explanation that will lead to nowhere when it comes to understanding AE religion.

The Kings name in a cartouche tells us that he rules the world, and that he does so under the protection of Re.

It´s a statement.

> I will send you a snail mail address now. Thanks
> very much.
> Dave.

I got it. I´ll ship it on tuesday.

Morten