Home of the The Hall of Ma'at on the Internet
Home
Discussion Forums
Papers
Authors
Web Links

May 21, 2024, 1:45 am UTC    
November 27, 2009 08:26AM
Interesting post Graham - I would like to add a few observations concerning Orion and Snefru but first this is an extract from my notes on the 'two skies' if it's any help:


'two skies' is mentioned on the antechamber's east gable and wall, inside the Dynasty 5 pyramid of Unis and Dynasty 6 pyramid of Teti (W 180 (WT) PT 274 Sethe Vol 1: 212; §406c):


Allen: for both skies go around (in service) for him and the two shores serve him.

Allen's note: The term "both skies" refers to the two parts of the sky, north and south of the Winding Canal, and the "two shores" are those of the Nile: the passage indicates that sky and earth are in the deceased's service.


Faulkner: He has travelled around the whole of the two skies, He has circumambulated the Two Banks

Faulkner's note: 'two skies', i.e. of the upper world and of the Netherworld. 'Two Banks', Egypt


Eyre: He has gone round (dbn) the Two Skies complete, he has circumambulated (pXr) the Two Banks

or: The complete Two Skies go round for him; the Two Banks go about for him.

Eyre commentary: The circling of the sky by the stars is 'mythologized' as their service for the king, or the power of the king is symbolized by his circling of all he controls. The claim of the king to individual power over the gods by transfer of their 'magic' from their bellies , and absorption of their power to act (Ax) into his person, is now defined as cosmic power, for which the world / sky goes round. In contrast to the cataclysmic beginning of the hymn, the king is now the controller of the functioning cosmos, heaven and earth. The stars, that falling produce fiery catastrophe, are so tamed as to go round as lights to light his fire, and serve him food…….. (Eyre 2002: 123)



Lichtheim: He has encompassed the two skies, He has circled the two shores (Lichtheim 1973 (2006): 37)


Freidman: "the king has traveled around the whole of the two skies, meaning the skies of the upper and underworld, indicating in the context to be discussed in a moment, that the king lays claim to the furthest limits of heaven from the north to the south. The next line in this Pyramid Text says that "He has circuited about the two banks (pXr.n.f jdb.wj), meaning Egypt, a phrase that has considerable relevance to the overall Sed theme of the complex." (Freidman 1995: 22)


On all six panels beneath Netjerikhet's mortuary complex, are a pair of glyphs with shen rings behind the king, that represent one half of the hieroglyph for sky - it was pronounced mdnb, and stands for the limits of the sky.

“The other sign normally found in Heb-Sed reliefs, half N1 ‘sky’ sign, or half N1 ‘sky’ sign with shen-ring, has been identified with the hinge of a door, but variant writings with N1, ‘sky’ sign, show quite clearly that it is really a part of the sky. The symbol ‘sky’ sign with shen-ring occurs among the objects depicted on the interior of the Middle Kingdom coffin of Seni in the British Museum, and above the sign is a hieratic label naming it mdnbw wsxt. The word mdnbw is probably a substantive with prefixed m, derived once more from the verb dnb, and again meaning 'boundary','limit', or, more literally,'point of turning back'. In this case, however, the determinative half N1 ‘sky’ sign with shen-ring, shows that we are dealing with a boundary of the sky, as distinct from the similarly named land boundary determined with D. So both the limits of the land and of the sky are represented by the presence of these symbols in the Heb-Sed reliefs. As shown by the text on the coffin of Seni, the location of the sky-symbol was in the broad courtyard (wsxt). Another Middle Kingdom coffin in the British Museum bears a representation of the D with the accompanying inscription dnb wsxt ‘the boundary-marker of the broad court’. This means that both symbols were located in the broad court, which is where one would expect the running ritual to take place, and, more importantly, is in precise accord with the position of the markers in the Step Pyramid courtyards. In this context it is worth remarking on a title which I would suggest should be read rpa(t) (i)r(i) dnbw wsxt, presumably being an ancient title of an official who had duties connected with the Sed-festival, and with the boundary-markers in particular.” (JEA Vol. 64, A.J. Spencer 1978: 54)



Another mention of 'two skies' in the Pyramid Texts is in the Dynasty 6 pyramids of Teti, Merenre, and Pepi II. Inscription from the sarcophagus chamber of Teti (T 17 (TMN) PT 332 Sethe Vol 1: 276; §541c:

Allen: The two skies have gone to Teti, the two lands have come to Teti.

Allen's note: The "two skies" are the two parts of the sky, north and south of the Winding Canal, and the "two lands" are the Nile Valley and the Delta.

Faulkner: The two skies go to me, the two earths come to me

Faulkner's note: ……the duals would then refer to sky and earth in their eastern and western aspects.

CT

Subject Author Posted

The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase November 27, 2009 05:05AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Chris Tedder November 27, 2009 08:26AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Pistol November 27, 2009 10:44AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Robert Bauval November 27, 2009 11:22AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase November 27, 2009 11:44AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Warwick L Nixon November 27, 2009 12:02PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Warwick L Nixon November 27, 2009 11:57AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Ronald November 27, 2009 06:42PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase November 29, 2009 05:06AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Anthony November 29, 2009 07:37AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase November 29, 2009 08:18AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Ronald November 29, 2009 06:05PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase November 29, 2009 06:26PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Khazar-khum November 30, 2009 08:06PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Anthony November 30, 2009 09:19PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase December 01, 2009 03:15AM

Correction

GChase December 01, 2009 03:30AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

cladking December 01, 2009 05:36PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Khazar-khum December 02, 2009 04:35PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

cladking December 02, 2009 05:14PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Warwick L Nixon December 01, 2009 02:32PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Ronald December 06, 2009 06:20PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

MJ Thomas 2 November 29, 2009 10:09AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Sam November 29, 2009 10:28AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Anthony November 29, 2009 11:30AM

astounding

Warwick L Nixon November 29, 2009 11:32AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

MJ Thomas 2 November 29, 2009 01:04PM

the fundamental question...

Warwick L Nixon November 29, 2009 01:10PM

Re: the fundamental question...

MJ Thomas 2 November 29, 2009 01:24PM

Re: the fundamental question...

Warwick L Nixon November 29, 2009 01:45PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Anthony November 29, 2009 03:48PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

MJ Thomas 2 November 29, 2009 04:35PM

It's a pyramid.

Anthony November 29, 2009 06:12PM

Re: It's a pyramid.

MJ Thomas 2 November 29, 2009 06:36PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

MJ Thomas 2 November 29, 2009 12:57PM

Proving a negative

Anthony November 29, 2009 03:52PM

Re: Proving a negative

cladking November 29, 2009 03:59PM

Re: Proving a negative

Anthony November 29, 2009 04:03PM

Re: Proving a negative

cladking November 29, 2009 05:48PM

Re: Proving a negative

Anthony November 29, 2009 06:03PM

Re: Proving a negative

MJ Thomas 2 November 29, 2009 06:22PM

Re: Proving a negative

Anthony November 29, 2009 07:12PM

Re: Proving a negative

MJ Thomas 2 November 29, 2009 08:28PM

Re: Proving a negative

cladking November 29, 2009 08:04PM

Re: Proving a negative

MJ Thomas 2 November 29, 2009 04:28PM

re serious research

Warwick L Nixon November 29, 2009 11:28AM

Re: re serious research

MJ Thomas 2 November 29, 2009 01:19PM

Playing the Ball

Warwick L Nixon November 29, 2009 01:41PM

Re: Playing the Ball

Pistol December 03, 2009 11:30AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Sam November 29, 2009 09:47AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase November 29, 2009 05:26PM

Visually impactful, yes...

Anthony November 29, 2009 05:59PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

GChase November 29, 2009 06:42PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

Anthony November 29, 2009 07:02PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

GChase November 30, 2009 02:55AM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

Anthony November 30, 2009 10:12AM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

GChase November 30, 2009 12:31PM

Demonstrative symbology

Warwick L Nixon November 30, 2009 12:50PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

Anthony November 30, 2009 02:04PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

Warwick L Nixon November 30, 2009 02:07PM

Verbally impactful, yes...

Anthony November 30, 2009 02:09PM

Re: Verbally impactful, yes...

Warwick L Nixon November 30, 2009 02:27PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

GChase November 30, 2009 02:44PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

Warwick L Nixon November 30, 2009 02:55PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

GChase November 30, 2009 02:54PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

Warwick L Nixon November 30, 2009 02:57PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

GChase November 30, 2009 03:05PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

Warwick L Nixon November 30, 2009 03:15PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

Chris Tedder December 01, 2009 06:24AM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

Anthony December 01, 2009 12:53PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

GChase December 01, 2009 03:37PM

Ethnocentrism

Anthony December 01, 2009 04:03PM

Re: Ethnocentrism

GChase December 01, 2009 04:23PM

Re: Ethnocentrism

Anthony December 01, 2009 05:06PM

Re: Ethnocentrism

Chris Tedder December 01, 2009 07:08PM

Re: Ethnocentrism

GChase December 02, 2009 07:27AM

Putting words in my mouth again

Anthony December 02, 2009 07:35AM

Addendum - Time to Pull the Plug

Anthony December 02, 2009 10:37AM

Re: Addendum - Time to Pull the Plug

Lee December 02, 2009 12:19PM

Re: Addendum - On Symmetry

Anthony December 02, 2009 01:20PM

sauce for the goose

Warwick L Nixon December 02, 2009 10:54AM

Re: sauce for the goose

Anthony December 02, 2009 01:29PM

Re: sauce for the goose

Greg Reeder December 02, 2009 03:13PM

Re: sauce for the goose

Chris Tedder December 02, 2009 04:51PM

Re: sahs for the goose

Greg Reeder December 02, 2009 04:57PM

Re: sahs for the goose

GChase December 02, 2009 05:14PM

Re: Visually impactful, yes...

Warwick L Nixon December 01, 2009 01:10PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Ronald November 29, 2009 05:58PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies - One step further

Anthony November 29, 2009 06:06PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase November 29, 2009 06:39PM

Circular reasoning

Anthony November 29, 2009 07:56PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

cladking November 29, 2009 11:28AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Warwick L Nixon November 29, 2009 11:29AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase November 29, 2009 11:58AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Warwick L Nixon November 29, 2009 12:06PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

cladking November 29, 2009 12:21PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Warwick L Nixon November 29, 2009 12:28PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

cladking November 29, 2009 12:37PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Warwick L Nixon November 29, 2009 01:07PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

cladking November 29, 2009 03:20PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Warwick L Nixon November 29, 2009 04:07PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 27, 2009 01:46PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Warwick L Nixon November 27, 2009 01:58PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Ogygos November 27, 2009 04:00PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Chris Tedder November 27, 2009 04:20PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Ogygos November 27, 2009 05:43PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Chris Tedder November 27, 2009 06:26PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Anthony November 27, 2009 07:10PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase November 28, 2009 04:50AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 28, 2009 05:13AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase November 28, 2009 05:35AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 28, 2009 06:16AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 28, 2009 06:22AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 28, 2009 10:45AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 28, 2009 11:50AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 28, 2009 01:39PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Pistol November 28, 2009 05:01PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 28, 2009 06:06PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 29, 2009 06:53AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 29, 2009 08:34AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 29, 2009 08:42AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 29, 2009 09:46AM

In a nutshell

Anthony November 29, 2009 04:01PM

Not so fast...

Pistol November 30, 2009 10:36AM

Re: Not so fast...

Hermione November 30, 2009 11:27AM

Re: Not so fast...

Warwick L Nixon November 30, 2009 12:11PM

Re: Not so fast...

Pistol November 30, 2009 02:12PM

Re: Not so fast...

Hermione November 30, 2009 03:06PM

Re: Not so fast...

Warwick L Nixon November 30, 2009 03:17PM

Re: Not so fast...

Chris Tedder November 30, 2009 04:31PM

Re: Not so fast...

Pistol November 30, 2009 05:47PM

Re: Not so fast...

Greg Reeder November 30, 2009 06:00PM

Re: Not so fast...

Pistol November 30, 2009 09:35PM

Re: Not so fast...

Greg Reeder November 30, 2009 10:57PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Chris Tedder November 29, 2009 11:50AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

GChase December 01, 2009 05:36PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Chris Tedder December 02, 2009 04:02PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 29, 2009 02:08PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 29, 2009 03:10PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 29, 2009 04:21PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 29, 2009 05:26PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 29, 2009 06:14PM

Let me get this right...

Anthony November 29, 2009 06:49PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 29, 2009 07:02PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 30, 2009 05:20AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 30, 2009 05:31AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 30, 2009 07:24AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 30, 2009 07:49AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 30, 2009 08:39AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione November 30, 2009 09:00AM

Translation

Anthony December 01, 2009 02:58PM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Hermione December 01, 2009 05:18PM

Real math as applied to tolerances

Anthony December 01, 2009 05:45PM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

MJ Thomas 2 December 01, 2009 07:20PM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

GChase December 02, 2009 05:20PM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

MJ Thomas 2 December 03, 2009 03:37PM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

GChase December 03, 2009 04:05PM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

MJ Thomas 2 December 03, 2009 07:48PM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

Anthony December 03, 2009 08:15PM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

GChase December 04, 2009 03:09AM

Question for Mr. Chase

Anthony December 04, 2009 09:06AM

Re: REAL-Real math as applied to tolerances

Jeff van Hout December 04, 2009 09:40AM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

Hermione December 04, 2009 04:07PM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

GChase December 04, 2009 06:43PM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

Hermione December 05, 2009 04:00AM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

GChase December 05, 2009 04:32AM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

Hermione December 05, 2009 05:00AM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

Chris Tedder December 05, 2009 05:39AM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

Hermione December 05, 2009 06:44AM

Re: Real math as applied to tolerances

Chris Tedder December 05, 2009 11:48AM

Re: The Pyramids and the Two Skies

Dave Lightbody November 28, 2009 06:30AM

What two skys?

cladking November 29, 2009 06:00PM

Re: What two skys?

GChase November 29, 2009 07:02PM

Re: What two skys?

Chris Tedder November 29, 2009 07:06PM

Re; What two skys?

cladking November 29, 2009 08:00PM

Re: Re; What two skys?

Sam November 29, 2009 08:19PM

Re: Re; What two skys?

cladking November 29, 2009 08:30PM

Re: Re; What two skys?

Sam November 29, 2009 09:49PM



Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login