Hi Ken,


> Did Krupp really comment on the figure of a Sah
> personification having a head oriented to the
> north at sunrise and sunset? If so, could you
> please provide me with the quotes or links to
> this? Thanks!


Oh, he wrote a bunch of rebuttals at that time (ca. 1995-2001), most of them in the Sky and Telescope. I don't have any of them at hand anymore, so you'll need to research the exact issue yourself. Btw, I'm sure that by doing a search on this very site, you'll find some of the exact refs. ( it has been discussed a few times, so to speak!!!). As to the "personification"....




>
> Also, if you get a chance, maybe you could voyage
> to .
>
> This is an illustration of Sah with a
> personification overlay at both sunrise and
> sunset, about 2500 BC. At sunrise, the Sah
> asterism figure is aslant, like somebody just
> rising out of bed in the morning. You may be
> reminded of the many ancient Egyptian depictions
> of Osiris being lifted up from his lions bed, and
> the djed being incrementally lifted up to a
> vertical position.
>
> At sunrise, the figure's head is oriented to the
> north, and gradually as the time passes the figure
> becomes more and more upright until it at its
> height in the sky. Then it gradually falls,
> falls, falls to the western horizon, where once
> again its head is oriented to the north of the
> sky.


....yes, this is exactly how Krupp saw it, and therefore claimed Robert's picture to be upside-down and needing to be turned around to function with the shafts pointing south and north (I'm sure there are numerous illustrations to this also on this site)! But Krupp's claim is based on modern cardinal conventions of north being "up" on the sky-map (i.e. the personification facing north), and this does not concorde with the AE thought. And hence his suggestion has been said to be Kruppside-down, heheh.
To Krupps defence one could say, that while he is an outstanding astronomer, he is amodern man using modern astronomical means, and unfortunately he knows next to nothing about the AE culture and their way of percepting their universe.


>
> Robert, if I understand it correctly, has
> suggested that the head of a figure was associated
> with the south. This was to make a connection
> between the south and an elevated position. But
> what actually takes place in the Sah asterism as
> it progresses through time is for the head of the
> figure to be in the north both when at the eastern
> and western horizons.
>
> If the head of the Sah personification is oriented
> to the south, as Robert seems to suggest, then the
> figure would be standing on its head at
> culmination. This seems like a rather unlikely AE
> representation. It would be, in my estimation,
> upside-down Egyptology.


Robert is right and thinks exactly the way the AEs did. You are transposing your own modern view on the AE perception, just like Krupp did! The AEs naturally oriented themselves to the south i.e. their map had south "up" i.e. when standing their faces were turned towards south (again, I refer you to Katherine GG's posting). What you need to do is actually to imagine sAH standing (or rising up or setting down) facing south and you get the right image. Dave's drawing (in my previous posting) illustrates the "Find it-Draw it-Lay it down" perfectly.
In other words, I am sorry to say, but you are wrong and your image of the AE universe and perception is Kruppside-down.





>
> One last quick comment: If we, as Robert seems to
> want, limit our discussion of Sah to the Old
> Kingdom or thereabouts, then there is a very
> limited pool of resources. In this pool, could
> you please give me one or two ancient Egyptian
> references to Sah in the southern sky?


You so misunderstand the "southern sky" and "facing south", don't you? Robert's theory does not need sAH to be mentioned in the southern sky. We know where it was seen, don't we. Unfortunately all of us don't seem to know, that this divinity was facing south....




>
> For bonus points you could venture into post OK
> resources. Quiz time, for 10 points: how many
> references are there to Sah in the BoD pAni?


I don't like you giving me points, you are in no position of doing so.
As for references to sAH, you could try the PTs, even though I don't think they'll be telling you "we imagine sAH facing south because that's what we do ourselves". For that part you'll need to take a closer look at the AE orientation and how they represented things. The pAni is NK.










Ritva