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May 13, 2024, 11:42 am UTC    
June 19, 2007 11:14AM
Anthony Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let me put it in a bit more "modern" context:
> Could Atenism, and the entire Amarna episode, ever
> have been predicted by looking at evidence from
> only the 20th and 17th Dynastic records?
>
> That's my only point. As we found evidence for
> the Amarna period, we had to revise the
> "monolithic" model dramatically. If we had buried
> our heads in the sand and said, "nope... no
> deviations, ever", then we'd have all this weird
> art and a whole city that just didn't "fit". We
> don't know that elements of other dynasties are
> not attributable to such cultural deviations, so
> we can't write off the anomalies or oddities as
> categorical "complexities" of the same old same
> old.

I disagree: even without knowledge of Amarna and Atenism, 19th century scholars were able to see there was a "difference" in Egyptian religion from the 17th dynasty and the 20th dynasties. Certain deities were emphasised more than others, and a certain deity (usually Amun-Ra) seems to have come into a henotheistic pre-eminence [ascription of supreme divine attributes to whichever one of several gods is addressed at the time]. Stela texts after the 19th dynasty show a more "personal" relationship with the deity, i.e., personal piety.

In older works, 19th century scholars claimed such was evidence of a "natural progression" towards monotheism. Then the Amarna area was found, and many referred to Atenism's founder as the first great "monotheist," although Atenism is simply a monolatry [the worship of a single god but without claiming that it is the only god, with other gods are recognized as existing]. But no scholar considered Egyptian religion and/or culture as "monolithic," IMO. Changes were evident, whether it was change of kings with new agendas, or from the empire periods, the more cosmopolitan influence/reaction against such influence. The term "archaising" in regards to ancient conservative reactions to changes in Egyptian religion was used long before Amarna was found, as I recall.

While I tend to agree with the idea that modern though "imposes" certain interpretations on ancient acts or texts that often are not there, when one can find the same belief, myth, or deity expressed in the same way over the course of the ancient culture's history, then I don't think personal (or modern) interpretation comes into play: one is looking at an actual belief expressed consistently from ancient times.

So, if Sutekh/Seth is associated with foreigners as far back as the Pyramid Texts, and you find the same interpretation in Middle Kingdom, New Kingdom, and TIP representations and myths concerning the deity, then by golly, he's probably a deity associated with all things and persons foreign. To extrapolate that Sutekh/Seth becomes a god of foreigners because he was "cast out" by his elder brother Horus for the throne of Egypt, or that he represented desert lands, and desert lands = chaos = foreigners, or that he's an outsider due to his "unnatural" birth from his mother Nut, or as the slayer of Osiris, etc., are all good analysis of Egyptian culture and mindset, IMO, and not "modern" interpretations.

Yet to equate Sutekh/Seth with the imagery of the Devil, however, is a modern interpretation, for no ancient Egyptian texts considered him so (some modern and earlier books so claim, being confused by the Greek/Ptolemaic through Roman periods' interpretation that Sutekh = Typhon (when in fact Sutekh slays the equivalent of Typhon, aka Apep, the enemy of Re). This is where problems of misinterpretation come in, IMO.

Reference:

te Velde, H. 1977. Seth, God of Confusion. A Study of His Role in Egyptian Mythology and Religion. Probleme der Ägyptologie. 6. W. Helck. G. E. van Baaren-Pape, transl. Leiden: Brill. (Most complete study of the imagery and role of Sutekh/Seth in Egyptian myth.)

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Doctoral Programme in Oriental Studies [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom

Subject Author Posted

Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg June 15, 2007 04:36AM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

Rick Baudé June 15, 2007 10:16AM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

Anthony June 18, 2007 02:23PM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

Rick Baudé June 18, 2007 10:28PM

Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Anthony June 19, 2007 08:22AM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Pete Clarke June 19, 2007 09:18AM

Exactly

Tommi Huhtamaki June 19, 2007 02:23PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Rick Baudé June 19, 2007 09:54AM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Anthony June 19, 2007 10:25AM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg June 19, 2007 11:14AM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Anthony June 19, 2007 03:23PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Rick Baudé June 19, 2007 11:07PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

MJ Thomas June 20, 2007 03:39AM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Rick Baudé June 20, 2007 10:12AM

Ethnocentric Projection and a bad analogy

Anthony June 20, 2007 10:35AM

Re: Ethnocentric Projection and a bad analogy

MJ Thomas June 20, 2007 05:16PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Anthony June 20, 2007 09:22AM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Rick Baudé June 20, 2007 10:24AM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Ritva Kurittu June 20, 2007 11:49AM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Anthony June 20, 2007 12:08PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Ritva Kurittu June 20, 2007 12:34PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Tommi Huhtamaki June 19, 2007 02:17PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Anthony June 19, 2007 02:50PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Tommi Huhtamaki June 19, 2007 02:58PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Rick Baudé June 19, 2007 10:45PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Ritva Kurittu June 20, 2007 11:53AM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Anthony June 20, 2007 12:23PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Ritva Kurittu June 20, 2007 12:43PM

Osiris, the jolly green giant

Chris Tedder June 20, 2007 04:26PM

Re: Osiris, the jolly green giant

Ritva Kurittu June 20, 2007 04:34PM

Re: Osiris the Green

Anthony June 21, 2007 08:07AM

Re: Osiris the Green

Ritva Kurittu June 21, 2007 12:23PM

Re: Osiris the Green

Rick Baudé June 21, 2007 10:12PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Ritva Kurittu June 20, 2007 11:56AM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Anthony June 20, 2007 12:24PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Tommi Huhtamaki June 20, 2007 12:41PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Anthony June 20, 2007 03:06PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Tommi Huhtamaki June 20, 2007 03:21PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Rick Baudé June 20, 2007 09:59PM

Re: Pyramid Texts as a Bedrock Foundation

Ritva Kurittu June 20, 2007 12:46PM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

rich June 15, 2007 01:05PM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg June 17, 2007 10:11PM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

rich June 17, 2007 07:50PM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

Rick Baudé June 18, 2007 09:53AM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

cladking June 18, 2007 11:32AM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

Rick Baudé June 18, 2007 10:31PM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

Ritva Kurittu June 20, 2007 12:01PM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

Rick Baudé June 21, 2007 01:28AM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

rich June 25, 2007 08:48AM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

Peski June 18, 2007 06:22PM

Re: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End

Ritva Kurittu June 20, 2007 12:32PM



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