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April 30, 2024, 2:03 pm UTC    
August 18, 2001 02:25PM
<HTML>Yes, I think Mark's assessment (esp. the second part) is exactly right. I take a somewhat dimmer view of it: it is a cheap rhetorical powerplay for the loyalty and sympathy of the reader (as Mark's presentation puts it). Once that loyalty has been secured, the power of suggestion can be used throughout the work to establish things that cannot be shown from evidence or argued from reason. All you have to do is see how often certain parties on certain other sites instantly play the "victim" card to see how much of their "work" depends on that loyalty, rather than on any cogency of argument or testimony of evidence. It is essential for the maintenance of their support base.

Although I do not agree with Litz's position, I see where he is coming from. My view, however, is that investigation of history is far better served by a fact-based, rational approach than one based on people's personal spiritual sensitivities. To my mind, the latter has led us in the past down very unpleasant paths, and still is in certain parts of the world. This is because a history based on one's spiritual sensitivity is nothing more than bald assertion or untestable innuendo.

So let's do a test, pitting the "fact-based" against the "spiritual sensitivity" approach. This has been done at Tiwanaku. On the one side, there is the hard evidence of excavation, artifactual finds, C-14 dates, field surveys, and so on. On the other are "feelings" of certain people that the site is older. The latter, surely, is a "spiritually sensitive" interpretation of the site. Litz would place both approaches on the same plane (I think, from what he writes). I do not. I think the "feelings" in the face of such hard evidence are worthless, untestable assertions and following them leads us to gurus revealing "the truth" from their spiritual intuition. Frankly and plainly, that looks like the Dark Ages to me.

What I find so attractive and democratic about fact-based science is its utter even-handedness in dealing with propositions: all are held up to the same standard, all are levelled in the face of the basic question: "show me the evidence." With Litz's spiritual approach, this is out of the question. You cannot test someone's spirituality for plausibility. History also tells us unequivocally that people are very unwilling to change their spiritual intuition. So you end up with camps, with schisms, and with creed wars. Welcome to the Middle Ages. In contrast, scientists change their opinions on the matters they investigate readily and immediately.

Another test. Please name the last time scientists marched en masse in Washington, DC demanding that outdated physics (or history) books be banned or science-fiction movies censored? It's never happened. This is because disagreement is harnessed in science as an essential element of the process of discovery, but it can be fatal among the spiritually attuned.

Just my view.

Best,

Garrett</HTML>
Subject Author Posted

FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Mark Grant August 17, 2001 05:58PM

Re: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Garrett August 18, 2001 09:24AM

Re: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Mark Grant August 18, 2001 11:23AM

Re: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Litz August 18, 2001 12:07PM

Re: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Mark Grant August 18, 2001 12:29PM

Re: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Garrett August 18, 2001 02:25PM

Re: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Stephen Tonkin August 18, 2001 06:45PM

A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Mark Grant August 18, 2001 10:23PM

Re: A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Don Holeman August 19, 2001 12:18AM

Re: A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Mark Grant August 19, 2001 12:52AM

ideas for Don

Mark Grant August 19, 2001 12:07PM

Re: ideas for Don

John Wall August 19, 2001 12:36PM

Re: ideas for Don

Don Holeman August 19, 2001 05:55PM

Re: A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Litz August 19, 2001 01:16PM

NOTE TO JOHN - A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Mark Grant August 19, 2001 01:28PM

Re: NOTE TO JOHN - A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

John Wall August 19, 2001 01:45PM

To John re masking Graham - A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Mark Grant August 19, 2001 02:07PM

Re: To John re masking Graham - A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

John Wall August 19, 2001 02:19PM

Re: A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

John Wall August 19, 2001 01:34PM

Re: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Litz August 19, 2001 12:51PM

NOTE TO Litz- A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Mark Grant August 19, 2001 02:04PM

Re: NOTE TO Litz- A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

John Wall August 19, 2001 02:41PM

Re: NOTE TO Litz- A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Claire August 19, 2001 03:19PM

To Claire, and enough from me on this for now...

Mark Grant August 19, 2001 03:44PM

Re: To Claire, and enough from me on this for now...

Claire August 19, 2001 04:01PM

Re: To Claire, and enough from me on this for now...

Mark Grant August 19, 2001 04:05PM

Re: To Mark Grant, and enough from me on this completely...

Claire August 19, 2001 04:25PM

Re: To Mark Grant, and enough from me on this completely...

John Wall August 19, 2001 04:44PM

Re: To Claire, and enough from me on this for now...

John Wall August 19, 2001 04:43PM

Re: To Claire, and enough from me on this for now...

John Wall August 19, 2001 04:41PM

Re: NOTE TO Litz- A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

John Wall August 19, 2001 04:40PM

Re: NOTE to John Wall :-)

Claire August 19, 2001 05:00PM

Re: NOTE to John Wall :-)

John Wall August 19, 2001 05:23PM

Re: NOTE to John Wall ~lol~ (meant to be funny)

Claire August 19, 2001 05:38PM

Re: NOTE to John Wall ~lol~ (meant to be funny)

John Wall August 19, 2001 05:51PM

Re: NOTE to John Wall ~lol~ (meant to be funny)

Claire August 19, 2001 05:54PM

Re: NOTE to John Wall ~lol~ (meant to be funny)

John Wall August 19, 2001 06:01PM

Re: NOTE to John Wall ~lol~ (meant to be funny)

Claire August 20, 2001 03:26AM

Re: NOTE to John Wall ~lol~ (meant to be funny)

John Wall August 20, 2001 04:34AM

Re: NOTE TO Litz- A Challenge: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Garrett August 19, 2001 07:30PM

Re: NOTE TO Garrett

Claire August 20, 2001 03:38AM

Re: NOTE TO Garrett

Garrett Fagan August 20, 2001 10:39AM

Re: NOTE TO Garrett

John Wall August 20, 2001 11:04AM

Re: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

Garrett August 19, 2001 07:20PM

Re: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

JoeRoyle August 20, 2001 04:51AM

Re: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

John Wall August 20, 2001 05:29AM

Re: FAIR OR FOUL ? - the need for two sites

JoeRoyle August 20, 2001 05:31AM



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