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May 28, 2024, 5:48 pm UTC    
October 21, 2006 03:00PM
I'll repost material from our earlier discussion, which you obviously did not read, consider, or absorb:

Donald,
One of the difficulties involved in discussions with you is that you know so little about Mesoamerican mythology and world view (and you refuse to learn what is pointed out to you. This means that you insist on interpreting literally material that is clearly mythological. An important thing to realize is that there is a basic unity in world view that extended from 2500 BC to the time of the Spanish conquest and beyond. This belief of “langue duration” extended territorially from Nicaragua to the US Southwest. Thus, although it must be done cautiously and with some judgment- given the range of time and space and inevitable changes—we can use Aztec data (which is the most abundant we have) as well as ethnographic material as sources to illuminate prior cultures for which we have much less information. This is a whole lot better than just interpreting data literally or going by “it-looks-like-it-to-me-therefore-it-is” school of interpretation.

The Mesoamerican cosmos has always divided the universe into three parts— the Upper World, the surface of the earth and the Underworld. On the surface of the earth there are divisions into the cardinal points at the center there is an “axis mundi” that joins all three divisions. This is envisioned both by the Maya and the Aztec as a great “world Tree”. The Maya think of it as a ceiba (cotton tree) the Aztecs are not as specific. Creation stories vary but often include the rending of a saurian monster into halves- one half becomes the sky and is held apart either by trees or gods at each of the cardinal points. If you would read my highly recommended book- Alfredo Lopez Austin, The Myths of the Opossum- you would get a lengthy description of the role and place of the world tree in Mesoamerican mythology. A key point that concerns us is that the World Tree was the conduit by which the animistic force- tonalli- flowed from the Upper World to the earth in order to determine the fate of beings in accordance to the mandates of the calendar. THE POINT IS THAT THE IDEA OF A SUSTAINING FORCE COMING FROM THE SKY TO HUMANS VIA SOME CONDUIT HAS NO TECHNOGICAL MEANING BUT IS AN AGE OLD MYTHOLOGICAL IDEA. Tonalli is a very complex idea with many meanings and ramifications. The following paragraphs are from chapter 2 of my book on Aztec medicine.:

In addition to the twofold division of the universe, mentioned earlier, the analogy between the cosmos and the human body included a tripartite correspondence. The cosmos was divided into three levels--the upper heaven (ilhuicatl), the lower heaven, and the underworld. These levels were linked to the three animistic forces (or souls), which resided in the body (see illustration 3). Ilhuicatl was linked to the head and to the animistic force tonalli. The lower heaven was linked to the heart and the animistic force teyolia. The underworld was linked to the liver and the animistic force ihiyotl.
.. .

The Aztecs believed that the human body had several animistic forces (souls), each with specific functions for the body's growth, development, physiology, and even its fate after death. There were three principal animistic forces: tonalli, located in the head; teyolia, in the heart; and ihiyotl, in the liver (illustration 7). The health of an individual depended on the relative amounts of each soul that was present and on the maintenance of a balance between them.
The word tonalli comes from the root--tona, which means heat and is also found in Tonatiuh, the Solar God. Tonalli has number of meanings: irradiation, solar heat, astrological sign of the day, fate of a person, soul and spirit, thing that is destined for or property of a given person.
.. .
From the moment of conception, tonalli linked a person to the gods and to the universe. Tonalli was infused into the fetus before implantation in the womb by Ometecuhtli, the creator God of Duality. Tonalli was a force that provided the individual with bravery, vigor, and warmth, and which made growth possible.
.. .
The link that tonalli made between the individual to the heavens apparently was seen not only as symbolic but also as physical in nature, perhaps similar to a cord, but invisible. Evidence for this is the belief that if someone jumped over a child who was lying down, the action would harm the child's tonalli and its growth would be stunted. In order to undo the harm, it was necessary to jump over the child in the reverse direction (Sahagún 1950-1969: book 4, 184). Similarly, to step over someone's head was considered a great insult, because to protect the head was equivalent to protection of a person's reputation and fate.
[BOM here is a direct reference to mythological cord joining the sky to humans to provide sustenance]
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Now let’s look at the “cord in the sky”—I looked all over the Popol Vuh for this an did not get an index entry. However, D. Freidel, L. Schele, and J. Parker. 1995. Maya Cosmos NY: Morrow does have an index entry for “umbilical cord.” Here are all the entries:

pp. 53- 57 [Speaking of the erection of an altar by a Maya informant, Schele digresses]:

The hieroglyphic name for the bejeweled and bemirrored World Tree (Fig. 1:9) was wakah-chan. It was written with the number six prefixed to the phonetic sign ah and the glyph for “sky,” because the sounds of wak the word for “six,” and ah, are homophonous with the word wakah meaning “raised up.” The name of the tree literally meant “raised-up-sky.” The Classic texts at Palenque tell us that the central axis of the cosmos was called the “raised-up-sky” because First Father had raised it at the beginning of creation in order to separate the sky from the earth.. .
The name of the altar [built by Don Pablo] is ka’an che’, “sky tree,” or “elevated wood.”.. . For this ritual, don Pablo built a ka’an che’ with six legs instead of four. This time the number four was represented by four leafy saplings, instead of the usual six, arching up from the corners of the altar to the peak of the arbor. Four sturdy vines of a kind called xtab ka’anil, the “cords of the sky,” completed the arches to form the “sky-platform.”

[BOM here clearly the “cords from the sky” represent the vault of the sky.
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p. 82 Matt Loper provided the confirmation by calling my attention to a turtle (Fig. 2:16) with a triangle of stones on its back. The turtle in the codex is shown suspended from cords tying it to the skyband because Orion hangs below the ecliptic. Clearly Orion was the turtle from which the Maize God rose in his resurrection (Fig. 2:17). The Milky Way rising above the turtle had to be the Maize God appearing in his tree form as he does in the Tablet of the Foliated Cross at Palenque. The image of the first turtle really is in the sky.
[BOM again “umbilical cords in the sky” are clearly astronomical mythological— not real physical objects]
%%%%
pp. 102-107-
p. 103. David Friedel, with his usual ability to glean the important things I missed, faxed me seven pages of ruminations on the cords of the heavens. As we described in Chapter 1, the modern Yucatek Maya have “sky ropes” attached to their “sky tree” altars which radiate out in four or six directions. He also remembered a riddle in the Book of Chilam Balam of Chumayel in which the heart of heaven is described as cordage, k’aan, a near homophone of k’an, as in the Na-Te’-Kan. He suggested that the cords in these zodiac scenes are related to heavenly umbilical cords and to the rebirth of the First Father as the Maize God at the k’an-marked place, where the ecliptic crosses the Milky Way close to the zenith position in the sky.. .
He [Jose Fernandez]also commented on K’iche’ beliefs about an umbilicus connecting the navel of the sky— the North Star, Polaris, to the K’iche’— to the Otherworld. Polaris is the main axis of the sky. Because it never sets, it provides the center around which all the constellations rotate.. .
The Classic Maya apparently called this center darkness the Wak-Chan-Ki, “Raised-up-Sky-Heart” or the ol, “the heart,” but it functioned just like the navel of Polaris. Furthermore, at the 1992 Texas meetings, Barbara Tedlock told us that the K’iche’ bury the umbilical cord and after birth from a female child in the center of the hearth, while a male’s umbilical cord is placed in the top of a tree. When we examine these actions against the backdrop of what we know of sky symbolism, we see that the hearth is Orion, while the top of the tree is in the region of the Wak-Chan-Ki, the raised-up heart of the sky. The cords in the Na-Ho-Chan are the umbilical cords emerging from the Maize God’s body at the Orion-Gemini Place of Creation.. .

(p.105-106) After this I found a set of papers that Peter Dunham, an archaeologist friend of ours, had sent me just before the Texas meetings in march. As a student, he had compiled information on a sky umbilicus in Yukatekan sources and from modern informants. He quoted an account of Creation recorded by Tozzer (1907: 153-154) as follows [BOM ****** THIS IS A MODERN STORY NOT ONE OBTAINED FROM CLASSIC MAYA THUS TELLS US NOTHING ABOUT TECHNOLOGY BEFORE COLUMBUS]

“ .. . there was a road suspended in the sky, stretching from Tuloom and Coba to Chich’en Itza and Uxmal. This pathway was called the kuxan sum or sakbe. It was in the nature of a large rope [sum] supposed to be a living [kuxan] and in the middle flowed blood. It was by this rope that the food was sent to the ancient rulers who lived in the structures now in ruins. For some reason this rope vanished forever. This first epoch was separated from the second by a flood called Halyokokab.”

[BOM— notice that even the story itself says that this “road” was a living rope through which blood flowed- certainly not some kind of technological creation. And, more importantly it fits right in with all this other mythology
%%%%

p. 157 At the west end of the plaza lies the second portal, the largest ballcourt ever built in Mesoamerica. Here the people of Chich’en Itza celebrated the myth of the Hero Twins through sacrificial pageant. Here they also painted murals documenting the founding wars of the Itza that gave the kingdom its sacred charter. Their descendants [BOM MODERN MAYA] today believe that the cosmic umbilicus lies under the floor of the ballcourt and will emerge one day through the great cenote.

[BOM notice that they are speaking of an umbilical cord not some physical technological item]

Please let us not hear about this “cord in the sky” again

%%%%%

and here we go around and around again smiling smiley.
Bernard
Subject Author Posted

As we are discussing voyages

Hans October 13, 2006 10:14AM

Re: As we are discussing voyages

Duncan Craig October 14, 2006 11:16AM

Re: As we are discussing voyages

donald r raab October 14, 2006 01:20PM

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donald r raab October 14, 2006 08:59PM

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donald r raab October 15, 2006 10:32AM

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donald r raab October 15, 2006 11:31AM

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Doug Weller October 15, 2006 12:32PM

Re: As we are discussing voyages

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Duncan Craig October 14, 2006 11:08PM

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donald r raab October 15, 2006 10:25AM

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Duncan Craig October 15, 2006 12:36PM

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donald r raab October 15, 2006 02:22PM

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bernard October 15, 2006 07:33PM

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donald r raab October 15, 2006 08:27PM

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Katherine Reece October 15, 2006 10:02PM

Re: As we are discussing voyages

Duncan Craig October 16, 2006 12:27AM

Re: As we are discussing voyages

Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 09:53AM

Found more....

Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 02:15PM

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Duncan Craig October 16, 2006 03:41PM

Re: Found more....

Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 03:47PM

Re: Found more....

Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 04:56PM

Re: Found more....

Duncan Craig October 16, 2006 08:27PM

Re: As we are discussing voyages

Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 01:47PM

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Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 02:38PM

Re: As we are discussing voyages

Duncan Craig October 16, 2006 03:30PM

Re: As we are discussing voyages

Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 05:37PM

Caral khipu

Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 03:14PM

Re: Caral khipu

Duncan Craig October 16, 2006 03:26PM

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Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 03:45PM

PS...

Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 03:54PM

Caral khipu images

Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 04:03PM

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bernard October 16, 2006 04:37PM

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bernard October 16, 2006 04:36PM

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bernard October 16, 2006 09:42PM

Re: Caral khipu

Doug Weller October 17, 2006 12:09AM

Re: Caral khipu

bernard October 17, 2006 01:28AM

Ack! Dating error

Katherine Reece October 16, 2006 05:31PM

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bernard October 16, 2006 04:31PM

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Duncan Craig October 16, 2006 08:40PM

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bernard October 17, 2006 11:39PM

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linguistic uncertainties

bernard October 19, 2006 11:56AM

sky umbilicus

bernard October 19, 2006 12:08PM

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Re: Caral khipu

bernard October 16, 2006 09:51PM

Re: As we are discussing voyages

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