<HTML>The problem is that you told us not a single word about the method Davidovits used. Maybe you care to do so now.
Fayence consists mainly of quarz grains or sand grains (dhe browner varieties) bound together by a glass phase. Nicholson calls them "reacted" and "not reacted quarz phases" (Egyptian Glass and Fayence, Shire 1993).
So if you can show us a reaction whe
by
Frank Doernenburg
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Ancient History
<HTML>Paul, the pyramids are still standing because geopolymeric cement is molecularly bound, which is a much stronger bond thab the mechanical type of bonding that takes place when ordinary portland cement particles puff up and surround aggregates in that kind of concrete.
Geopolymeric cement actually molecularly bonds to aggregates -- impressive technology and the first major advance in
by
Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>No, Sandy, it only shows your ignorance and unwillingness to look behind the "Word of Davidivits". The glass phases connecting the quarz grains are clearly visible in the microscopic photos in the sources I named several times now. Glass needs a specific temperature to form, i know of no magical powder or Harry-Potter-Special-Spell to reduce this temperature below a specific
by
Frank Doernenburg
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Ancient History
<HTML>Anthony,
1. I posted the reference Archae about a week ago.
2. Frank's claims about melting quartz prove that he refuses to try to learn anything about geopolymerization before he pretends to know more that its inventor Dr. Joseph Davidovits. Using burnt cereal grains in the mix produces opal ct which gradually transforms to quartz.
3. No chemical melting. No crystalline quar
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Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>Anthony,
1. I posted the reference Archae about a week ago.
2. Frank's claims about melting quartz prove that he refuses to try to learn anything about geopolymerization before he pretends to know more that its inventor Dr. Joseph Davidovits. Using burnt cereal grains in the mix produces opal ct which gradually transforms to quartz.
3. No chemical melting. No crystalline quar
by
Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>Anthony,
1. I posted the reference Archae asked for about a week ago.
2. Frank's claims about melting quartz prove that he refuses to try to learn anything about geopolymerization before he pretends to know more that its inventor Dr. Joseph Davidovits. Using burnt cereal grains in the mix produces opal ct which gradually transforms to quartz.
3. No chemical melting. No crysta
by
Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>Again you pretend your books have all the answers to a product called Egyptian faience that scientists (see the report Anthony quoted) are still trying to understand. You refuse to learn the facts of geopolymers before claiming that you know more than the inventor of the chemistry of geopolymerization Dr. Joseph Davidovits. How arrogant you are!
If you had bothered to just try to und
by
Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>Yes I will tell again.
You don't understand the system. You don't even try to undestand the system before you pretend that your reference books are the word on the matter -- despite the non-chemical match and the need for high temps the say is needed.
Repeat:
Davidovits reproduced the tiles of Zoser's pyramid made of Egyptian Faience with the heat of a wood fire and
by
Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>Well, self glazing fayence is the most primitive one which gets the thinnest glaze. This technique was used mostly in predynastic times. The later, better fayence works with 2 seperate pastes: a coearse one for the body, and a SEPARATE one for the glazing.
In Nicholson: Egyptian Fayence and Glass, Shire 1993, are some pretty good photos from a scanning electrone microscope (p. 12 ff)
by
Frank Doernenburg
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Ancient History
<HTML>Sandy,
Unless the material was coated BEFORE the interior of the pyramid was EVER USED, then it has been contaminated. Period.
You must see this to be true. There MUST be residue of soot on the sample, as it came from INSIDE the ascending passageway. When it was "double coated", all they did was SEAL IN THE CONTAMINANT.
That doesn't take a degree in chemistry, S
by
Anthony
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Ancient History
<HTML>Anthony, you must appreciate the difference between real science and pure science fiction.
Dr. Davidovits has produced real science. You can see it all documented at his web site. There are many patents and industrial processes and papers and collaborations with top professionals in universities and government agencies all over the world. There are international development programs
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Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>Sandy, Don't try to pull that kind of nonsense.
1. You can't cite the pyramid stone itself as an example of natural limestone. It's synthetic and geopolymeric, which is why it contains zk-20.
Davidovits, J., "X-Rays Analysis and X-Rays Diffraction of casing stones from the pyramids of Egypt, and the limestone of the associated quarries," published in David
by
Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>Jeesh, man.
You are SERIOUSLY smokin'!!!
Now... about your scenario...
It would seem that burning anything on the torches during the exploration of the Great Pyramid would have contaminated the walls. Even Petrie, who spent hours and hours and hours in there, must have COVERED the ceilings and upper walls in soot. Not to mention, anyone in the descending passageway or the ma
by
Anthony
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Ancient History
<HTML>Anthony, no.
Geopolymerization produces zk-20.
Look at the problem another way and you'll see that the limestone is synthetic. See Margaret Morris v Chris Dunn. Read the portion about the coating and the sample itself. Don't make me explain this here when MM says it so well.
I know you've got your heart set on your Herodotus Machine being right but you can't get
by
Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>Just goes to show that you haven't been around.
Now I'm going to be as scathing about you as you were about Anthony.
You said.
'Sandy, put up a reference showing that zk-20 has been found in limestone.'
Ok here's a reference
You said.
'Certain zeolites may rarely be found in limestone. However, the zeolite in pyramid stone is Zk20. '
Pyramid ston
by
sandy
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Ancient History
<HTML>Leave Frank out of this. He's just answering MY questions.
Now, let me get this straight.
(and you can answer both of us, maybe)...
You are basically claiming that the "Egyptian Faience" is actually not faience at all, but an early form of geopolymer, correct?
It is chemically NOT matched to ANY faience that has been produced using standard faience production metho
by
Anthony
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Ancient History
<HTML>Unheard off!
Just goes to show that you haven't been around.
Now I'm going to be as scathing about you as you were about Anthony.
You said.
<Sandy, put up a reference showing that zk-20 has been found in limestone. >
Ok here's a reference.
You said
<Certain zeolites may rarely be found in limestone. However, the zeolite in pyramid stone is Zk20. <a hr
by
sandy
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Ancient History
<HTML>Anthony, Frank understands Egyptian faience based on modern explanations of faience that use heat higher than predynastic Egyptians were able to achieve. As you saw in the article you posted researchers are trying harder to understand the true nature of Egyptian faience. This is beyond Lucas's understanding. The product makes sense when geopolymer chemistry is applied.
Stocks do
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Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>Frank wrote:
"Lucas/Harris have several pages of chemical analyses of fayence in their book (a feature missing with Nicholson/Shaw :-( ) and are discussing the possibility of chemicals which have vanished during the firing process to lower temperatures, but no possible chemicals were found. Stocks, too, seems to have experimented but was unable to get lower than 800°C (S/N p. 19
by
Anthony
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Ancient History
<HTML>Sandy, put up a reference showing that zk-20 has been found in limestone.
Limestone formed under the ocean millions of years ago. How were there fires?
First you said that zeolites are modern products so the zk-20 must be contamination. So I showed that J. Davidovits et al. proved that geopolymerization dates back to 8000 years ago. I explained that geopolymerization produces zk-20
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Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>Chris, you find one unfinished sarcophagi in the rough state. It could be in its present position because someone wanted to haul it away. Its unfinished state could lend clues to the way it was made.
If a geologist trained in geopolymerization looks at the matrix and finds it to be geopolymeric, then its unfinished state and position could suggest that 1. someone tried to haul it awa
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Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>I tried to hut down this Chatelier-guy. Well, no one in Egyptology quotes him (neither, eg. Nicholson or Lucas/Harris). Funny, if the man would have been such a great discoverer.
Not even in his biography I could find anything about this famous discovery. Read
All I can see is that he did some work with cement around the turn of the century.
Even combinations (Chatelier AND egypt
by
Frank Doernenburg
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Ancient History
<HTML>As I've explained twice already Davidovits used the heat of a wood fire to make Egyptian faience. Geopolymerization does not require the high temp that would be used to make faience the way we make glass today. The predynastic Egyptians could not achieve the higher temperatures, and could only achieve those produced by a wood fire and oven. I mention this because it helps to show
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Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>> Please note that Egyptian Faience is significantly different than regular faience. It is made without clay, and as such, requires a lower firing temperature.
Excuse me, but Nicholson writes ONLY about Egyptian Fayence. The other, Italian Fayence, has been renamed to "majolica", therefore "fayence" always means "Egyptian Fayence" in modern literature
by
Frank Doernenburg
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Ancient History
<HTML>Anthony, yes and notice that no clay is involved.
Too bad these researchers do not investigate alongside of Dr. Davidovits because they might come to a realization about the nature of the Egyptian faience--bound by a silico-aluminate made with an alkali reaction--that they are trying to understand.
Although these materials were made with heat (which caused the faience to self-glaze)
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Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>All GREAT points, actually.
The fact that some of these were left "rough" is what blows my mind... but that's neither here nor there.
I think Sandy has attempted to throw you a bone above, when he asks why YOUR theories and Davidovits' theories can not co-exist. No matter WHAT the material, or its form, getting it to these kinds of accuracies is nearly impossibl
by
Anthony
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Ancient History
<HTML>Frank,
Please note that Egyptian Faience is significantly different than regular faience. It is made without clay, and as such, requires a lower firing temperature.
Davidovits claims to have produced Egyptian faience using a simple campfire. The actual compounds within the faience create a different composite altogether.
IF it were produced the way YOU have stated, then you would
by
Anthony
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Ancient History
<HTML>> but they DO show that the AE's had the capacity 5000 years ago to create a stone-LIKE material that worked exactly as the proposed limestone geopolymer would, in the construction model proposed by Davidovits.
Excuse me, but I think you misunderstood me. It shows that fayence has NOTHING, really NOTHING TO DO with polymer blocks. It not even SCRATCHES the basic outline.
Fa
by
Frank Doernenburg
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Ancient History
Answer - 22 years ago
<HTML>Egyptian faience is so high quality that the first Egyptologists though it was painted sandstone.
This was proved untrue by microscopic analyses. Consequently, now it's thought of as ceramic, but that was not so at first. Egyptian faience has nothing in common with ordinary faience, which is made of clay like a ceramic.
Davidovits showed that the faience tiles in Zoser's p
by
Sandy J. Perkins
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Ancient History
<HTML>This is exactly what I discovered.
As I have stated above, the faience does not prove that the building blocks were limestone geopolymer, but they DO show that the AE's had the capacity 5000 years ago to create a stone-LIKE material that worked exactly as the proposed limestone geopolymer would, in the construction model proposed by Davidovits.
This is ONLY circumstantial evide
by
Anthony
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Ancient History