>>Egypt had a profound influence on the West. It had little to no influence on SSAfrica. It had >>a tremendous impact on the cultures surrounding the Mediterranean, but not those below the 3rd cataract.

Kush is below the 2nd and 3rd cataract and Kush is the empire that came and took control of Egypt in the 25th dynasty, stating that they were "restoring" the ancient culture and using their worship of Amun and the ancient connections between Amun in Egypt and Gebel Barkal in Sudan as a sign of legitimacy for their rule. Again, this reflects an overall lack of understanding about anything in the Nile Valley, other than the need for them not to be African.

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Gebel ("Mount") Barkal is the modern Arabic name of a small table-mountain on the western edge of Karima, Sudan. From early in the Egyptian New Kingdom (ca. 1500 BC), this isolated sandstone butte marked the official upper limit of the Egyptian empire in Africa and the site of an important border town called Napata (Map). Although at least one other pharaonic military outpost lay farther up the Nile at Kurgus, near the Fifth Cataract, Napata was Egypt's southernmost settlement and the site of its most remote religious sanctuary.


Situated on the right bank of the Nile, about 40 km downstream from the Fourth Cataract, Napata probably had no importance as a river port, for the current here was too swift to make shipping practicable. Its importance seems to have been due to its position on the main river crossing point of the overland road linking the Sixth Cataract region with the Third. It was doubtless the site of an important ferry and customs station, where African products of all descriptions were stockpiled and warehoused before shipment down to Egypt.


In time, Napata¹s strategic importance was completely overshadowed by its cultic importance, which derived from Gebel Barkal (Fig.1). The Egyptians called the rock Dju-wa¹ab ("Pure Mountain") and identified it as the residence of a primeval aspect of their state god Amun of Karnak, who dwelt at Thebes, some 1150 km downstream. Curiously, the Egyptians imagined Gebel Barkal to be a far-flung extension of Karnak and came to believe that each site, Karnak and Barkal, was a manifestation of the other. Amun of Karnak, for example, had always been called "Lord of the Thrones of the Two Lands." But when the Egyptians discovered Gebel Barkal, they decided that, "before it was known by the people," the name of the mountain had been "Thrones of the Two Lands". In other words, the mountain was viewed as the source of the god's most ancient epithet, and the source of the name of Karnak. This historical invention allowed the Egyptians to identify Gebel Barkal as Karnak, and vice versa, and to conceive this remote hill in Nubia as the god¹s original home, while declaring at the same time that he had first appeared at Thebes! Even the god¹s temples at Karnak and Napata carried the same name: Ipet-sut ("Sanctuary of the Thrones"), which allowed these shrines, for religious purposes, to be deliberately confused. This new dogma established Amun as divine master of Upper Egypt and the entire Egyptian Nubian empire, with Napata and Thebes as his two cultic poles. Even the name of Napata itself, and the local epithet of its god - "Amun of Napata" (Imn Npt) - may have been contrived to form puns with other very common names of the Theban god, such as "Amen, Lord of Heaven" (Imn Nb-pt) and "Amun of the Sanctuary" (Imn Ipt). This would further have enhanced the idea that Napata and Thebes, and the great gods of each, were actually identical.

From: [www.arkamani.org]

And this was then resurrected by the 25th dynasty who occupied Egypt from Kush:

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Upon the death of Piankhy about 712 BC, he was buried beside his ancestors, beneath a modest pyramid at el-Kurru with a subterranean chamber accessed by staircase. It was a tomb type that would remain in use, in one form or another, by his successors in Kush for the next ten centuries. Besides tombs for his major and minor wives, he also provided tombs for four of his horses, which were buried standing up and facing east. Burying horses - sometimes up to eight at a time in separate tombs side by side - was a custom continued by each of Piankhy's successors at el-Kurru.

After Piankhy's death, his northern Egyptian "vassals" again erupted into rebellion, and his successor, a brother named Shabaqo, reinvaded to maintain control. It is Shabaqo rather than Piankhy whom the Greek historians remembered as the founder of the 25th Dynasty, doubtless because he was the first of his line to take up permanent residence in Egypt.

At this point, the kings moved to Memphis; they became fully Egyptianized and cosmopolitanized; and, as far as we know, they returned to Nubia only for burial. If they have traditionally been portrayed by historians as "foreigners" in Egypt, they surely did not see themselves as such, despite their different ethnic, cultural and linguistic origin. In their minds Egypt and Kush were northern and southern halves of an ancient original domain of Amun. These two lands, they believed, had been united in mythological times; subsequently they grew apart, to be united again in historical times only by the greatest pharaohs. As "sons" of Amun, the Napatan monarchs saw themselves as heirs of those pharaohs, who thus became their "ancestors." Shabaqo (ca. 712-698 BC) and his successors Shebitqo (ca. 698-690 BC) and Taharqa (690-664 BC) believed they were the god's representatives - from his southern sphere - chosen to unite and protect his ancient empire and to restore ma'at - "truth, order, and propriety" in the Egyptian sense - throughout the land.

From: [www.nubianet.org]

Khazar-khum everything you said reflects an overall ignorance of Egyptian history and culture. It is this city of Napata, founded in the 18th dynasty of Egypt, that became the empire of Kush in later years. Again, the dynastic Egyptians had a strong southern orientation and this is but one example of it. Even prior to this Egypt had dieties that had southern origins. Set and HOrus both originated in upper Egypt. Hathor is a southern diety along with Khnum and other dieties. Like all other peoples, their religion was designed to support their politics, which maintained the power of the throne and political power in Upper Egypt. It is no different than many other political dynasties and powers that have come along all over the world.

>>So culturally AE would logically be considered Western/mediterranean. Geographically it is >>in Africa. But so is Libya & there never seems to be this kind of argument over the >>ancient Libyans.

The culture of Egypt was African because it originated in Africa. Specifically if any geography defines Egypt it is the Nile valley and the Nile River. The Nile Valley is completely in Africa and the Nile River, one of the longest in the world, is completely in Africa and it is from the Nile Valley that the culture of Egypt originated. The fact that it influenced others in the Mediterranean does not change that. This is another example of a claim that does not match up with reality. The Egyptians identified with the Nile in their cosmology, their politics and their culture there is no political, cultural or cosmological association between the ancient Egyptians and the Mediterranean.


>>The bizarre 'southern women were more fertile' argument launched above is shockingly >>racist in its implications; it reeks of old-style 'breeding stock' beliefs and should be >>laughed out of here. Actually it should be flung out of here with extreme prejudice, but >>that's not my call to make.

No it wasn't. Hitler was shockingly racist. European colonists were shockingly racist. Africans identifying their queen as the mother of the king and as a woman from the south is not racist. The Queen mother of any society is supposed to be the epitome of the people and culture she rules over. Does the fact that the Queen of England totally identifies with Germanic people make her racist or reflect the Germanic heritage of the British crown? The culture of Egypt had a strong southern orientation and the politics and culture reflected this orientation, including things like God's Wife of Amun, which is another form of the Great Royal Wife, who also was traditionally a Southern woman. Given that the dynastic Egyptian line originated in the South, it would make sense that those from the South would use the religion to reinforce their power base in the South. This was extended further south as the Egyptians incorporated areas along the Nile valley in the South. The fact that Amun was the "throne" of Egypt and the God's Wife was a Southern woman was nothing but another way of keeping the two united. With the chief difference that such woman bore kings to the throne. So the only thing shocking is the total lack of understanding of Egypt's connection to Africa versus your own so called "mediterranean" connection.

When you talk about the rise of nation-states you are inherently talking about the rise of an organized political,economic and religious system that is inherently designed to protect the power of those in charge. The concept of the 'Queen Mother' as a sign of the throne and the inheritence of power within a political system and was not a racist construct.

The God's wife of Amun was a title that arose after periods of conflict where Southern kings rose to power in association with their allies in the South. As a result of this support from the south, the southerners became "married" to Egypt, with there being no greater a title for a Queen than "God's Wife of Amun". Note again that the Karnak was the sanctuary of the thrones, was tied to a diety with roots in the South and had a royal wife of Southern Ancestry.

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God's Wife of Amun has its origins prior to the 18th Dynasty, appearing first in the 10th and 12th Dynasties of the Middle Kingdom, but it was an obscure, non-royal role prior to the reign of Ahmose I, the founder of the New Kingdom. He not only elevated the "Great Southern City" (Thebes), but also the position of God's Wife of Amen, by bestowing it on his chief wife, Ahmose Nefertari. She had held the title, Second Prophet of Amun, an exceptional rank for a woman, but arranged by contract to exchange the title for that of God's Wife. In doing so, she created an important religious concept held at least through the 18th Dynasty. During this period, the Egyptians held that the crown prince was the child not of the king, but of the union between Amun and his Great Royal Wife.

From: [www.touregypt.net]

The wives of the Kings of the 12th and 13th dynasties were often depicted as jet black, like princes Kemsit of Mentuhotep I, which is again showing how Egypt was 'renewed' from the South. This 'renewal' was reinforced in the religious iconography, where black was a sign of renewal a sign of the Nile silt and a sign of Southern ancestry. This tradition picked up again with Ahmose Nefertari who was the Great Royal Wife (Queen Mother) of the 18th dynasty, which again was a renewal of Egyptian culture from the South, this time against the Asiatic Hyksos who tried to dominate from the North. Again, she is depicted as black indicating a literal and symbolic marriage with the South, with southern people from which Egypt received it's renewal. This is not racist, but reflected a world view that, like the Nile which generated renewal in the form of the yearly inundation, the peoples of the South also were a force of renewal. In contrast, the people of the lands of the Asiatics, Europeans, Libya and elsewhere were seen as forces of chaos and destruction. Also, it is from this time of Egypt stretching deep into Sudan that you begin to see depictions of the jet black "nubians" that Egyptologists talk about. Prior to this the iconography of Egypt's enemies in Africa were not much different than themselves and that includes the early Libyans, who were also depicted in tones not much different than themselves. The pale skin libyans did not arrive in the art of Egypt until later.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2007 08:42PM by Doug M.