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May 8, 2024, 8:01 pm UTC    
May 28, 2005 06:41PM
Dear MJT,
I have not posted with you before. I have given up on getting WG to stop claiming that evolutionary theory is all chance and random. It is not-- BOTH chance and necessity (natural selection) are essential. What follows is an extended quote from Francisco Ayala, a former President of the Am. Assoc. for the Advancement of Science. After that a short definition of what constitutes a scientific theory-- to differentiate it from your other 2 systems of belief.

Francisco Ayala.2004. “Design without Designer” in W.A. Dembski and M. Ruse, eds. Debating Design. From Darwin to DNA pp. 55-80 Cambridge: Cambridge University Press

pp.60-61. This criticism [monkeys on typewriters] would be valid if evolution depended only on random processes. But natural selection is a nonrandom process that promotes adaptation by selecting combinations that “make sense”—that is, that are useful to the organisms. The analogy of the monkeys would be more appropriate if a process would be chosen every time they appeared on the typewriter; and then we would also have typewriters with previously selected words rather than just letters on the keys; and again there would be a process that selected meaningful sentences every time they appeared in this second typewriter. If every time words such as “the”, “origin”, “species” and so on appeared on the first kind of typewriter; they each became a key I the second kind of typewriter, meaningful sentences would be occasionally produced in this second kind of typewriter. If such sentences became incorporated into the keys of a third kind of typewriter, in which meaningful paragraphs were selected whenever they appeared, it is clear that pages and even chapters “making sense” would eventually be produced.

We need no carry the analogy too far, since the analogy is not fully satisfactory; but the point is clear. Evolution is not the outcome of purely random processes; rather, there is a “selecting” process, which picks up adaptive combinations because they reproduce more effectively and thus become established populations. These adaptive combinations constitute, in turn, new levels of organization upon which the mutation (random) plus selection (nonrandom or directional) process again operates.

The manner in which natural selection can generate novelty in the form of accumulated hereditary information may be illustrated by the following example. In order to be able to reproduce in a culture medium, some strains of the colon bacterium Escherichia coli require that a certain substance, the amino acid histidine, be provided in the medium. When a few such bacteria are added to a cubic centimeter of liquid culture medium, they multiply rapidly and produce between two and three billion bacteria in a few hours. Spontaneous mutations to streptomycin resistance occur in normal (i.e., sensitive) bacteria at rates of the order of one in a hundred million (1 x 10-8) cells. In our bacterial culture, we would expect between twenty and thirty bacteria to be resistant to streptomycin due to spontaneous mutation. If a proper concentration of the antibiotic is added to the culture only the resistant cells survive. The twenty or thirty surviving bacteria will start reproducing, however, and – allowing a few hours for the necessary number of cell divisions—several billion bacteria will then be produced, all resistant to streptomycin. Among cells requiring histidine as a growth factor, spontaneous mutations able to reproduce in the absence of histidine arise at the rate of about four in one hundred million (4 x 10-8) bacteria. The streptomycin-resistant cells may now be transferred to a culture with streptomycin but no histidine. Most of them will not be able to reproduce, but about a hundred will start reproducing until the available medium is saturated. Natural selection has produced, in two steps, bacterial cells resistant to streptomycin and not requiring histidine for growth. The probability of the two mutational events happening in the same bacterium is about four in ten million billion (1 x 10-8 x 4x 10-8 = 4 x 10-16) cells. An event of such low probability is unlikely to occur even in a large laboratory culture of bacterial cells. With natural selection, cells having both properties are common results.

pp. 64. Natural selection accounts for the “design” of organisms, because adaptive variations tend to increase the probability of survival and reproduction of their carriers at the expense of maladaptive, or less adaptive, variations. The arguments of Paley and the authors of the Bridgewater Treatises against the incredible probability of chance accounts of the origin of the organisms and their adaptations are well taken, as far as they go. But neither these scholars, nor any other writers before Darwin, we able to discern that there is a natural process (namely natural selection) that is not random, but rather oriented and able to create order, or to “create.” The traits that organisms acquire in their evolutionary histories are not fortuitous but determined by their functional utility to the organisms, and they come about in small steps that accumulate over time, each step providing some reproductive advantage over the previous condition.
Chance, nevertheless, an integral part of the evolutionary process. The mutations that yield the hereditary variations available to natural selection arise at random, independent of whether they are beneficial or harmful to their carriers. But this random process (as well as others that come to play in the great theater of life) is counteracted by natural selection, which preserves what is useful and eliminates what is harmful. Without mutation, evolution could not happen, because there would be no variations that could be differentially conveyed from one generation to another generation. But without natural selection, the mutation process would yield disorganization and extinction, because most mutations are disadvantageous. Mutation and selection have jointly driven the marvelous process that, starting from microscopic organisms, has produced orchids, birds, and humans.
%%%%%%

A theory is stronger than a belief in that it just doesn't have "some" evidence it has a lot of evidence, this evidence has been tested, i.e. attempts have been made to disprove it. Good scientific theories also have other qualities-- they are productive, i.e. they suggest further experiments and extensions, they predict things that can be found, etc. etc.

Bernard
Subject Author Posted

article on ID

bernard May 27, 2005 03:02PM

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Dave L May 27, 2005 06:12PM

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Joanne May 27, 2005 06:25PM

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wirelessguru1 May 27, 2005 06:32PM

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Joanne May 28, 2005 07:03AM

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M.J.Thomas May 28, 2005 05:58PM

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bernard May 28, 2005 06:41PM

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wirelessguru1 May 28, 2005 10:43PM

They have.

Dave L May 28, 2005 06:41PM

Re: They have.

M.J.Thomas May 31, 2005 06:36PM

Re: They have.

Dave L May 31, 2005 06:41PM

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wirelessguru1 May 31, 2005 07:05PM

Re: They have.

Dave L May 31, 2005 07:29PM

Re: They have.

wirelessguru1 May 31, 2005 08:25PM

Re: They have.

M.J.Thomas May 31, 2005 08:05PM

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bernard May 31, 2005 08:44PM

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wirelessguru1 May 31, 2005 09:54PM

Re: They have.

Tommi Huhtamaki May 31, 2005 10:28PM

Re: They have.

wirelessguru1 June 01, 2005 12:01AM

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Mercury Rapids May 29, 2005 11:25AM

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Ritva Kurittu May 29, 2005 03:03AM

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Joanne May 29, 2005 11:03AM

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M.J.Thomas May 31, 2005 06:27PM

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wirelessguru1 May 31, 2005 08:42PM

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lobo-hotei June 01, 2005 09:51AM

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wirelessguru1 June 01, 2005 11:58AM

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lobo-hotei June 01, 2005 12:21PM

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wirelessguru1 June 01, 2005 12:51PM

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lobo-hotei June 01, 2005 01:23PM

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wirelessguru1 June 01, 2005 03:16PM

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bernard June 01, 2005 01:08PM

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Dave L June 01, 2005 10:08AM

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M.J.Thomas May 31, 2005 08:47PM

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Dave L May 31, 2005 09:16PM

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wirelessguru1 May 31, 2005 09:32PM

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Dave L June 01, 2005 06:53AM

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wirelessguru1 June 01, 2005 11:34AM

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bernard May 31, 2005 08:23PM

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wirelessguru1 May 31, 2005 10:08PM

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M.J.Thomas June 01, 2005 04:12PM

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M.J.Thomas June 02, 2005 05:23PM

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M.J.Thomas June 03, 2005 08:35AM

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wirelessguru1 June 02, 2005 06:52PM

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M.J.Thomas June 03, 2005 08:32AM

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wirelessguru1 June 03, 2005 11:43AM

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M.J.Thomas May 31, 2005 07:03PM

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Dave L May 31, 2005 07:44PM

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wirelessguru1 May 31, 2005 09:38PM

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Dave L June 01, 2005 08:42AM

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wirelessguru1 June 01, 2005 12:13PM

Mod request

lobo-hotei June 01, 2005 12:24PM

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Joanne June 01, 2005 07:55AM

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wirelessguru1 June 01, 2005 12:34PM

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Joanne June 01, 2005 03:12PM

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wirelessguru1 June 01, 2005 03:41PM

One fine day....

Dave L May 28, 2005 10:26AM

Re: One fine day....

wirelessguru1 May 28, 2005 12:01PM

Re: One fine day....

M.J.Thomas May 28, 2005 06:12PM

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Dave L May 28, 2005 06:47PM

Re: One fine day....

wirelessguru1 May 28, 2005 10:25PM

Re: One fine day....

Dave L May 30, 2005 02:34AM

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wirelessguru1 May 30, 2005 02:53AM

Mod note

Mercury Rapids May 30, 2005 04:38AM

Re: One fine day....

wirelessguru1 May 28, 2005 10:21PM

Re: One fine day....

M.J.Thomas May 31, 2005 07:10PM

Re: One fine day....

wirelessguru1 May 31, 2005 10:20PM

Re: article on ID

wirelessguru1 May 27, 2005 06:27PM

Re: article on ID

Joanne May 27, 2005 06:48PM

Re: article on ID

wirelessguru1 May 27, 2005 07:25PM

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wirelessguru1 May 27, 2005 04:25PM

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Dave L May 27, 2005 04:38PM

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wirelessguru1 May 27, 2005 04:55PM

Re: article on ID

Joanne May 27, 2005 04:15PM

Re: article on ID

wirelessguru1 May 27, 2005 04:23PM

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Dave L May 27, 2005 04:40PM

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wirelessguru1 May 27, 2005 04:57PM

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Joanne May 27, 2005 04:59PM

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wirelessguru1 May 27, 2005 05:09PM

Re: article on ID

Joanne May 27, 2005 05:48PM

Re: article on ID

wirelessguru1 May 27, 2005 06:34PM

Re: article on ID

Joanne May 27, 2005 06:42PM

Re: article on ID

wirelessguru1 May 27, 2005 07:28PM

Re: article on ID

M.J.Thomas June 01, 2005 04:57PM

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bernard June 01, 2005 05:26PM

Re: article on ID

M.J.Thomas June 04, 2005 07:44AM

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wirelessguru1 June 04, 2005 12:14PM



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