> Why should forces be equated with gods, who have a consiousness? Forces do not have
> to have a consiousness, and are most often perceived not to have a consciousness.
> Presumbably gods do or why pray to them?
First of all consciousness is way over-rated! For example, during the bicameral mind period in prior AGEs and before the breakdown of the bicameral mind there was no consciousness at all or extremely limited consciousness!
Consciousness is only a very recent thing in the evolution of human beings...
> Again, you assume facts not in evidence. Why should we think gods = forces, as opposed
> to gods control forces? I was asking you to prove the existence of gods and also
> their nature. That's why I said "good luck."
Joanne, I don't need good luck because there is no such thing as "luck"!
Having the FORCE or being the FORCE is the argument that you want to present. But, either case, it does not mean that having or being the force one cannot control it!
I have PROVED to you the existence of gods because I ALWAYS equate gods with forces and there is plenty of evidence of forces. The only remaining argument that you may have is ONLY whether or not any of these forces are or are not intelligent. That's it!!!
But, if the action of a force is adjusted by the feedback received from the reaction of a prior action, then intelligence is there by definition. To me that is also the most basic definition of intelligence...
> How do you know that? Many religions conceive of gods or god as being above natural law,
> i.e., not subject to natural law.
Maybe because I am not basing MY personal reality subjective observations on religion!
> Some have argued that natural disasters are not the will of god, but simply a force of
> nature that god or gods permit (but presumably could control if that was wished).
Well, to me, any force of nature is a god force by definition! The only argument is on this issue of how to exercise control to any of these forces. But, since man can already control some of these forces like EM forces, it is not a very big mental stretch to directly suggest that higher intelligence could control even more of these forces!!!
> Anyway, if you concede that a perk is the ability to manipulate or control natural laws,
> that itself is different than being subject to those laws.
Not necessarily! Again, like human beings can also control some aspects of these forces/laws (like when flying!) but human beings are ALSO subject to those laws (if the airplane crashes)...Why view gods any different!?
> You asked first, and I asked you in return to show you (I hope) that it is an
> unanswerable question.
Yes, I agree that is an unanswerable question at this stage since we don't know. But, I don't personally see any evidence at all (including the bible) that gods can and have acted outside nature and its natural laws. I suppose that "miracles" maybe examples of such super-natural powers, but I still would like to view them as natural, but more advanced powers, until proven otherwise!
> You are entitled to your own beliefs about this. However, what you say here aren't
> facts they're opinion.
Well, based on the mechanical assumption, what I stated were FACTS in terms of the need to have an operating system! For example, no piece of mechanical hardware with some intelligence (artifial or not) can operate without software or an operating system. Those are basic FACTS and NOT opinions. Otherwise, we couldn't even be communicating via the Internet right now...
-wirelessguru1
