April 21, 2007 12:26PM
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Registered: 17 years ago
Posts: 358
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Lee,
You did not answer anything because I never posted a question. The determinative for people you refer to is silent in terms of speech, but that is when it is used as a determinative. However, when the same symbol is used as a noun it is pronounced rmt, but still has the same meaning, which is people. Therefore, to suggest that a man and a woman above or next to three strokes does not represent people, whether as a noun or determinative is nonsense.
That is not a question it is a fact. NOw if you care to SHOW me some references that says that occurrences of said glyph is NOT a reference to people and means something else then I will gladly look at it. I am not knocking your knowledge, but I see a lot of confusion and misunderstanding floating around and I like to cut to the chase and educate myself. Just because it is a determinative in the case of kmt[rmt] does not change the fact that it still has the same meaning in Egyptian grammar. Therefore, taking into consideration that it is a determinative, I wrote it in brackets to indicate that it is a determinative and silent. That should be clear. If I didn't make it clear before, I am making it so now.
Now as for rmt n kmt, that is a different word that is written using people as a noun. In that sense, yes, rmt is a noun and is followed by the adposition "of" and followed by the sign for the country, kmt. This is also valid grammar and I do not disagree with it. But let us make it clear that rmt n kmt and kmt[rmt] are not the same thing. I am not speaking anywhere here about the term rmt n kmt and its occurrance in Egyptian texts OR its meaning. The ONLY thing I am referring to here is the various ways that the Egyptians wrote kmt[determinative] or kmt with no determinative, to explore the reasons for the different determinatives and what they mean. All of which leads to the original question of this thread which was where did the Egyptians ever write kmt followed by the determinative for land, meaning explicitly the "black land" and when were these instances a clearly reference to the entire country, as opposed to just some part of it, as in the black fertile farmland. My opinion on this has been made clear numerous times on this thread, so I wont repeat it. Suffice to say the main issue still seems to be one of generalizations, which only further confuses the point being discussed.
See:
[
www.hallofmaat.com]
References:
People, rmt, as a determinative, which is silent:
[
www.jimloy.com]
People, rmt, as a noun, which is not silent:
[
www.jimloy.com]
Arguing ad infinitum over one word and one meaning is a ridiculous way of understanding Egyptian thought, as Egyptian words had multiple layers of meaning in many contexts. This can be seen clearly in the association of Osiris with the color black and the idea of "black fertile land". This symbolism does not just stop with the soil itself, as it also extends to the people as well, not just as people on the soil, but people OF the soil, as the living human form, molded from the clay of the Nile by Khnum. It represents the form black body returning to the black earth from which it came and becoming the seed and fertile material for new life to be fashioned by Khnum. Therefore Osiris in black is a complex statement about the cycle of life, death and new life.
Quote
At this point, it is important to understand what the Egyptians believed about the spirit of beings. There were three forms of spirits to each being: the akh, ba, and ka. As mentioned above, the akh was the name given to the form that the dead existed in. This form was immortal and unchanging. It is this form that traveled to the underworld. The ba, represented as a human headed bird, was the form released at death. It is often called the soul, incorrectly. It was actually considered a being’s personality or character. Finally, the ka was the form considered to be the double of a being, both spiritually and physically. The ka was created at birth by the god Khnum on his potter’s wheel. The ka could be released in dreams while a being was alive, but was finally released at death. It is symbolized by a pair of upraised arms. At one’s death, the ka and the ba traveled to join each other in the next world. Once this was done, the being could become an akh, and take the form of the dead that existed among the gods.
From: [
www.touregypt.net]
Khnum forming the body of Osiris for resurrection in the underworld.
[
www.thebanmappingproject.com]
Cult of osiris:
[
www.osirisnet.net]
Subject |
Author |
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legeonas |
April 13, 2007 02:58PM |
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Joanne |
April 13, 2007 03:05PM |
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legeonas |
April 13, 2007 03:20PM |
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Joanne |
April 13, 2007 06:26PM |
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legeonas |
April 13, 2007 03:23PM |
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Lee |
April 13, 2007 08:17PM |
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legeonas |
April 13, 2007 09:15PM |
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Joanne |
April 14, 2007 07:01AM |
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legeonas |
April 14, 2007 09:02AM |
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Joanne |
April 14, 2007 10:16AM |
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Doug M |
April 14, 2007 10:26AM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 14, 2007 11:02AM |
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legeonas |
April 14, 2007 11:15AM |
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Joanne |
April 14, 2007 11:43AM |
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legeonas |
April 14, 2007 10:27PM |
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Joanne |
April 15, 2007 06:34AM |
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legeonas |
April 15, 2007 06:58AM |
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Joanne |
April 15, 2007 01:45PM |
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legeonas |
April 16, 2007 01:27PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 16, 2007 01:36PM |
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legeonas |
April 16, 2007 01:39PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 16, 2007 01:46PM |
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legeonas |
April 16, 2007 02:43PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 16, 2007 02:55PM |
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legeonas |
April 16, 2007 05:26PM |
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bernard |
April 16, 2007 03:37PM |
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legeonas |
April 16, 2007 05:30PM |
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bernard |
April 16, 2007 07:49PM |
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legeonas |
April 16, 2007 08:38PM |
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Joanne |
April 17, 2007 01:01PM |
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legeonas |
April 17, 2007 03:03PM |
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Joanne |
April 17, 2007 04:06PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 14, 2007 12:30PM |
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bernard |
April 14, 2007 03:00PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 15, 2007 09:55AM |
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legeonas |
April 14, 2007 11:12AM |
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Joanne |
April 14, 2007 11:59AM |
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Lee |
April 14, 2007 12:58PM |
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bernard |
April 14, 2007 02:57PM |
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Joanne |
April 14, 2007 03:36PM |
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bernard |
April 14, 2007 03:53PM |
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Lee |
April 15, 2007 09:03AM |
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bernard |
April 17, 2007 11:15AM |
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Doug M |
April 14, 2007 07:33PM |
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legeonas |
April 14, 2007 10:38PM |
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Doug M |
April 15, 2007 03:25AM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
April 14, 2007 04:42PM |
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broko |
April 19, 2007 08:25PM |
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legeonas |
April 19, 2007 08:36PM |
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broko |
April 19, 2007 09:02PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 03:43AM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 10:19AM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 10:53AM |
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Lee |
April 20, 2007 11:17AM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 20, 2007 11:20AM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 01:17PM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 11:51AM |
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Joanne |
April 20, 2007 12:24PM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 12:41PM |
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Lee |
April 20, 2007 01:05PM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 01:24PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 01:42PM |
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Katherine Reece |
April 20, 2007 01:48PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 01:19PM |
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Doug M |
April 20, 2007 09:25PM |
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Joanne |
April 21, 2007 06:34AM |
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Joanne |
April 19, 2007 08:51PM |
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broko |
April 19, 2007 09:06PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 03:46AM |
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Joanne |
April 20, 2007 09:41AM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 11:54AM |
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Joanne |
April 20, 2007 12:25PM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 01:32PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 02:08PM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 04:02PM |
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Katherine Reece |
April 20, 2007 04:10PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 04:19PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 04:23PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 20, 2007 05:50PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 05:55PM |
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Joanne |
April 20, 2007 03:00PM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 10:21PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 11:26PM |
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broko |
April 21, 2007 04:29AM |
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Hermione |
April 21, 2007 04:47AM |
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legeonas |
April 22, 2007 04:37PM |
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Joanne |
April 21, 2007 06:41AM |
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Katherine Reece |
April 21, 2007 09:46AM |
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Katherine Griffis-Greenberg |
April 21, 2007 01:05PM |
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broko |
April 21, 2007 02:05PM |
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Joanne |
April 21, 2007 03:02PM |
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broko |
April 21, 2007 04:14PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 21, 2007 04:28PM |
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broko |
April 21, 2007 04:44PM |
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Katherine Reece |
April 21, 2007 04:48PM |
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broko |
April 21, 2007 05:06PM |
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Katherine Reece |
April 21, 2007 05:09PM |
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Joanne |
April 21, 2007 05:23PM |
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broko |
April 21, 2007 06:33PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 21, 2007 07:44PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 21, 2007 08:17PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 21, 2007 10:27PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 22, 2007 08:22AM |
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legeonas |
April 22, 2007 04:48PM |
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broko |
April 21, 2007 09:53PM |
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broko |
April 21, 2007 09:57PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 21, 2007 11:13PM |
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broko |
April 22, 2007 12:30AM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 22, 2007 12:39AM |
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broko |
April 22, 2007 12:53AM |
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legeonas |
April 22, 2007 04:55PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 21, 2007 04:52PM |
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Katherine Reece |
April 21, 2007 05:08PM |
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broko |
April 21, 2007 05:11PM |
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legeonas |
April 22, 2007 05:03PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
April 21, 2007 04:56PM |
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bernard |
April 21, 2007 05:17PM |
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legeonas |
April 22, 2007 04:45PM |
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Joanne |
April 21, 2007 05:21PM |
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broko |
April 21, 2007 05:36PM |
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legeonas |
April 22, 2007 05:05PM |
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legeonas |
April 22, 2007 04:41PM |
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bernard |
April 19, 2007 09:08PM |
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broko |
April 19, 2007 09:16PM |
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bernard |
April 19, 2007 10:01PM |
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broko |
April 19, 2007 11:51PM |
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Joanne |
April 20, 2007 09:44AM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 12:15PM |
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Joanne |
April 20, 2007 12:26PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 20, 2007 11:13AM |
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legeonas |
April 14, 2007 11:09AM |
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Joanne |
April 14, 2007 11:41AM |
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legeonas |
April 14, 2007 10:45PM |
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broko |
April 19, 2007 09:25PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 04:16AM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 12:04PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 02:11PM |
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broko |
April 21, 2007 04:24AM |
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legeonas |
April 22, 2007 05:07PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 10:42AM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 12:07PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 02:13PM |
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broko |
April 20, 2007 02:34PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 14, 2007 12:25PM |
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Katherine Reece |
April 14, 2007 12:30PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 14, 2007 12:35PM |
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Doug M |
April 14, 2007 09:21PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 16, 2007 11:19AM |
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Doug M |
April 16, 2007 11:50AM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 16, 2007 12:09PM |
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Doug M |
April 16, 2007 02:24PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 16, 2007 02:45PM |
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Doug M |
April 16, 2007 04:09PM |
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bernard |
April 16, 2007 04:38PM |
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Katherine Griffis-Greenberg |
April 16, 2007 05:19PM |
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Doug M |
April 16, 2007 07:25PM |
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Hermione |
April 17, 2007 02:42AM |
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Katherine Griffis-Greenberg |
April 17, 2007 07:31PM |
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Doug M |
April 17, 2007 10:38PM |
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Hermione |
April 18, 2007 02:24AM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
April 14, 2007 04:52PM |
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Doug M |
April 14, 2007 08:54PM |
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Katherine Griffis-Greenberg |
April 15, 2007 01:17AM |
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Doug M |
April 15, 2007 03:36AM |
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Joanne |
April 15, 2007 06:41AM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
April 15, 2007 08:41AM |
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Doug M |
April 15, 2007 09:29AM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
April 15, 2007 09:52AM |
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Doug M |
April 15, 2007 03:29PM |
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legeonas |
April 16, 2007 01:34PM |
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bernard |
April 15, 2007 01:35PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
April 15, 2007 02:06PM |
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Lee |
April 15, 2007 07:42PM |
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Doug M |
April 15, 2007 10:39PM |
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Hermione |
April 16, 2007 07:39AM |
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Lee |
April 16, 2007 07:33AM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
April 16, 2007 10:40AM |
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Doug M |
April 16, 2007 11:45AM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 16, 2007 12:00PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
April 16, 2007 01:11PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 16, 2007 01:28PM |
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legeonas |
April 16, 2007 01:42PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 16, 2007 01:51PM |
|
legeonas |
April 16, 2007 02:28PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 16, 2007 02:37PM |
|
legeonas |
April 16, 2007 02:38PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 16, 2007 02:49PM |
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legeonas |
April 16, 2007 05:34PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 18, 2007 11:25AM |
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legeonas |
April 18, 2007 02:18PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 20, 2007 10:47AM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 11:08AM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 20, 2007 11:17AM |
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Lee |
April 20, 2007 11:54AM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 20, 2007 12:26PM |
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legeonas |
April 20, 2007 02:15PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 23, 2007 12:10PM |
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legeonas |
April 23, 2007 04:25PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 25, 2007 11:51AM |
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legeonas |
April 25, 2007 12:44PM |
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Hermione |
April 25, 2007 02:14PM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 27, 2007 10:20AM |
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Joanne |
April 27, 2007 10:40AM |
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Warwick L Nixon |
April 27, 2007 10:44AM |
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Doug M |
April 16, 2007 02:12PM |
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bernard |
April 16, 2007 03:47PM |
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Doug M |
April 16, 2007 04:32PM |
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Katherine Griffis-Greenberg |
April 16, 2007 05:48PM |
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legeonas |
April 16, 2007 06:12PM |
|
legeonas |
April 16, 2007 06:44PM |
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Doug M |
April 16, 2007 07:41PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 16, 2007 08:26PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 16, 2007 09:16PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 16, 2007 09:44PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 16, 2007 09:56PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
April 17, 2007 07:21AM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 17, 2007 09:59AM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 17, 2007 11:01AM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 17, 2007 11:26AM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
April 17, 2007 03:17PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 17, 2007 04:53PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 17, 2007 05:54PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 17, 2007 06:09PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 17, 2007 06:55PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 17, 2007 07:48PM |
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Katherine Griffis-Greenberg |
April 17, 2007 07:56PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 17, 2007 09:33PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 18, 2007 12:29PM |
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Joanne |
April 18, 2007 12:52PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 18, 2007 01:03PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 18, 2007 01:31PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 18, 2007 02:44PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 18, 2007 06:01PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 18, 2007 07:42PM |
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Ritva Kurittu |
April 18, 2007 09:00PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 18, 2007 09:44PM |
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Joanne |
April 18, 2007 10:27PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 12:24AM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 18, 2007 10:25PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 08:42AM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 19, 2007 09:48AM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 11:58AM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 19, 2007 01:41PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 03:16PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 19, 2007 03:35PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 03:49PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 03:50PM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 19, 2007 03:55PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 04:30PM |
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Joanne |
April 19, 2007 05:19PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 05:32PM |
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Joanne |
April 19, 2007 06:42PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 06:55PM |
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Joanne |
April 19, 2007 07:20PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 08:52PM |
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Joanne |
April 19, 2007 08:57PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 09:58PM |
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Lee |
April 19, 2007 10:16AM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 19, 2007 11:52AM |
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Greg Reeder |
April 18, 2007 01:04PM |
|
legeonas |
April 17, 2007 12:24PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 17, 2007 12:27PM |
|
legeonas |
April 17, 2007 03:04PM |
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Rick Baudé |
April 17, 2007 03:13PM |
|
legeonas |
April 17, 2007 08:23PM |
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Lee |
April 20, 2007 12:27PM |
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Doug M |
April 21, 2007 01:31PM |
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legeonas |
April 22, 2007 05:15PM |
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Doug M |
April 23, 2007 08:42AM |
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Katherine Griffis-Greenberg |
April 23, 2007 12:17PM |
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Lee |
April 23, 2007 12:30PM |
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Katherine Griffis-Greenberg |
April 23, 2007 03:45PM |
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legeonas |
April 23, 2007 04:29PM |
|
Lee |
April 20, 2007 06:10PM |
|
Lee |
April 20, 2007 09:59PM |
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Doug M |
April 21, 2007 12:26PM |
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broko |
April 22, 2007 02:26AM |
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legeonas |
April 22, 2007 05:22PM |
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Katherine Reece |
April 20, 2007 11:16AM |