Home of the The Hall of Ma'at on the Internet
Home
Discussion Forums
Papers
Authors
Web Links

May 14, 2024, 8:15 pm UTC    
November 20, 2006 03:46PM
A few issues need to be clarified:


1. I strongly suspect that Rodney Hale overlaid photos of Cygnus on the Giza layout, and got excited when he saw an 'exact' match. However, as I already have pointed out, this is wrong methodology. A good astronomy program that takes into account proper motion can easily simulate the stars as the AE would have seen them 4600 years ago, and it turns out there is no 'exact' or 'precise' match at all - only a fairly good match.

An exact match might generate initial excitement, but is not required for the idea to work - a reasonably good match is enough.


2. AC: "The Stretching of the Cord ceremony not only involved the stars of Ursa major but, I believe, also those of Cygnus as it made its upper meridian transit."


At its highest point in the sky due north (upper meridian transit), Deneb was 83.7 deg alt c.2600 BC. This means it was almost directly overhead and very difficult if not impossible to align with msxtiw (the 'Plough' / 'Big Dipper') which was as at its lowest point in the sky due north c.2600 BC. Apart from the problem of Deneb being nearly directly overhead, there was no star in msxtiw due north at the same time as Deneb c.2600 BC.


Detailed descriptions of the 'stretching the cord' ritual are from a very late period in AE history. The ritual involved looking at msxtiw (the 'Plough' / 'Big Dipper', a large distinctive asterism in Ursa Major) and establishing the temple in the traditional manner. The purpose of the ritual was to establish the four angles (corners) of the building. The king 'stretched the cord' while looking at the sky, observing the stars and facing msxtiw. The 'observations' noted the movements of the stars, and the 'course' of msxtiw. Poles, a length of cord, a merkhet (a notched wooden instrument), and a plumb-bob were used in the ritual.

Among the deities mentioned are Seshat (sSAt, goddess of record-keeping, archives and building); 'Perception' (siA, faculty of the gods and the king for recognizing what needs to be done to preserve of enhance Maat - as a god accompanies the Sun in his boats); 'Plumb-bob' who gave instructions and the 'Indicator of Time' standing with a merkhet.


When Thoth and Khnum were involved, the temple of 'Sun - Horus of the Akhet' (ra Hrw Axti) was built in conformity with the Akhet bearing his disc. The shadow of the sun from 'He-who-makes-existence-run-its-course' was involved in the establishing of the angle.


Perhaps two methods of establishing the main axis of the sacred building / structure were used - stellar and solar, or some buildings were oriented with a stellar and others with a solar method.

However, neither method explicitly mentions Cygnus, Sokar (zkrw, 'Speeder') or Dewenanui (dwn-anwi, 'Long Wings').


3. AC: "Sokar is additionally connected with the benben, a sacred egg-like stone symbolising cosmic creation, which might also have been of meteoric origin. This link between Sokar and the benben is found in the Pyramid Texts, which state that the egg-like stone ‘is in the Mansion of Sokar’."


AFAIK, there is no mention of an egg-like stone.

The determinative for the benben (bnbn) in 'Sokar's Enclosure', is not egg-shaped, but cone shaped with a bulbous top, similar to the White Crown (HDt) of Upper Egypt)

An earlier mention of the benben in the 'Benben Enclosure' at Iunu has a determinative similar to M35, a 'heap of corn' (M35 is the det. in wbn, 'overflow', pronounced the same as wbn, 'rise'). Again its not egg-shaped.

However, in the OK PTs, Sokar is mentioned in connection with an egg. Sokar of 'Spread Lake' breaks the egg of the king (with his harpoons?) and unites his metal (bands). The king flies in the Sokar-boat landing on the wings of his father Geb. (N 347)

CT
Subject Author Posted

If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Don Barone November 12, 2006 09:27PM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Byrd November 13, 2006 12:10AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Hans November 13, 2006 12:20AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Anthony November 13, 2006 01:07AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Dave L November 13, 2006 10:51AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Anthony November 13, 2006 11:08AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Hans November 13, 2006 03:33AM

Re: Egyptian Maps

Anonymous User November 13, 2006 06:23AM

Re: Egyptian Maps

C Wayne Taylor November 13, 2006 06:57AM

Re: Egyptian Maps

Anonymous User November 13, 2006 04:15PM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Anthony November 13, 2006 09:00AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

C Wayne Taylor November 13, 2006 09:45AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Anthony November 13, 2006 09:52AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

David Johnson November 13, 2006 10:11AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Anthony November 13, 2006 11:07AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

David Johnson November 13, 2006 11:16AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Anthony November 14, 2006 03:30PM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Don Barone November 14, 2006 07:29PM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

David Johnson November 15, 2006 04:33AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Anthony November 15, 2006 06:11AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Don Barone November 13, 2006 10:32AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Don Barone November 13, 2006 11:21AM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Greg Reeder November 13, 2006 12:11PM

Re: If Not Orion ... then How about Cygnus ?

Don Barone November 13, 2006 12:48PM

Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Chris Tedder November 14, 2006 01:07PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Don Barone November 14, 2006 01:21PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Chris Tedder November 15, 2006 02:15PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Don Barone November 14, 2006 02:17PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Anthony November 14, 2006 02:21PM

The best input yet on this thread!

Anthony November 14, 2006 02:19PM

Re: The best input yet on this thread!

Greg Reeder November 14, 2006 03:50PM

Re: The best input yet on this thread!

Don Barone November 14, 2006 04:37PM

Re: The best input yet on this thread!

Greg Reeder November 14, 2006 04:47PM

Re: The best input yet on this thread!

Warwick L Nixon November 14, 2006 05:48PM

Re: The best input yet on this thread!

Don Barone November 14, 2006 06:03PM

Re: The best input yet on this thread!

Warwick L Nixon November 15, 2006 10:42AM

Re: The best input yet on this thread!

Don Barone November 15, 2006 11:05AM

Re: The best input yet on this thread!

Warwick L Nixon November 15, 2006 11:13AM

the link

Anthony November 15, 2006 06:25PM

Re: the link

Don Barone November 15, 2006 06:46PM

Re: the link

Anthony November 15, 2006 08:52PM

Re: the link

Don Barone November 15, 2006 09:30PM

Re: the link

Anthony November 15, 2006 11:19PM

translation

Warwick L Nixon November 16, 2006 10:59AM

Re: translation

Don Barone November 16, 2006 11:47AM

Re: translation

Warwick L Nixon November 16, 2006 01:20PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

C Wayne Taylor November 14, 2006 06:00PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

C Wayne Taylor November 15, 2006 08:59AM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Don Barone November 15, 2006 10:34AM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Anthony November 15, 2006 01:49PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Chris Tedder November 15, 2006 01:06PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Warwick L Nixon November 15, 2006 01:52PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

C Wayne Taylor November 15, 2006 01:57PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Chris Tedder November 15, 2006 02:24PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Don Barone November 15, 2006 02:30PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Chris Tedder November 15, 2006 04:39PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Don Barone November 15, 2006 02:11PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Chris Tedder November 15, 2006 02:17PM

Re: Cygnus / Giza - a precise fit ?

Don Barone November 15, 2006 02:19PM

About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Andrew Collins November 15, 2006 08:38PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Chris Tedder November 16, 2006 04:02AM

Long Wings...

Morph November 16, 2006 05:12AM

Re: Long Wings...

Warwick L Nixon November 16, 2006 11:19AM

Re: Long Wings...

Morph November 16, 2006 11:58AM

winging it...

Warwick L Nixon November 16, 2006 12:35PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 16, 2006 05:38AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 16, 2006 06:15AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 16, 2006 02:06PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 16, 2006 02:30PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Warwick L Nixon November 16, 2006 02:44PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 16, 2006 03:03PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 16, 2006 03:03PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 16, 2006 03:21PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 16, 2006 03:29PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 16, 2006 04:13PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Warwick L Nixon November 16, 2006 04:42PM

Sokar not related to Saqqara

Greg Reeder November 16, 2006 04:38PM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Warwick L Nixon November 16, 2006 04:43PM

Sokar is Solar

Greg Reeder November 16, 2006 04:49PM

Re: Sokar is Solar

Warwick L Nixon November 16, 2006 04:52PM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Morph November 16, 2006 05:10PM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Warwick L Nixon November 16, 2006 05:18PM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Morph November 16, 2006 05:28PM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Greg Reeder November 16, 2006 05:47PM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Morph November 16, 2006 06:05PM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Greg Reeder November 16, 2006 06:49PM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Morph November 17, 2006 04:31AM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Warwick L Nixon November 17, 2006 10:06AM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Warwick L Nixon November 16, 2006 07:13PM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Greg Reeder November 16, 2006 07:26PM

Re: Sokar not related to Saqqara

Morph November 17, 2006 04:36AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 16, 2006 02:46PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Warwick L Nixon November 16, 2006 11:17AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 16, 2006 02:46PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Andrew Collins November 16, 2006 07:43PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Greg Reeder November 16, 2006 08:12PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Andrew Collins November 18, 2006 06:03PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Greg Reeder November 18, 2006 06:24PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Don Barone November 18, 2006 06:38PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 16, 2006 08:34PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 17, 2006 05:47AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 17, 2006 08:59AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Don Barone November 17, 2006 09:24AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 18, 2006 06:40PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Warwick L Nixon November 17, 2006 10:02AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Greg Reeder November 17, 2006 11:58AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Warwick L Nixon November 17, 2006 12:03PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Greg Reeder November 17, 2006 12:41PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 18, 2006 06:42PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Chris Tedder November 19, 2006 02:55AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Warwick L Nixon November 19, 2006 10:26AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 19, 2006 11:50AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 19, 2006 12:53PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 19, 2006 01:14PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Greg Reeder November 19, 2006 01:47PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 19, 2006 01:55PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Andrew Collins November 19, 2006 05:13PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 19, 2006 06:06PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Greg Reeder November 19, 2006 06:32PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 20, 2006 11:19AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 19, 2006 12:11PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Andrew Collins November 19, 2006 05:09PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 20, 2006 06:54AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Chris Tedder November 20, 2006 07:24AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 20, 2006 09:34AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Chris Tedder November 20, 2006 11:45AM

Unresolved issues

Chris Tedder November 20, 2006 03:46PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 19, 2006 11:58AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 20, 2006 11:17AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 20, 2006 11:45AM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Anthony November 20, 2006 12:57PM

Re: About time I said something about Cygnus vs Orion

Morph November 20, 2006 03:30PM



Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login