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May 16, 2024, 8:36 pm UTC    
September 08, 2005 01:19PM
You said:

Quote

So what you're saying then is that the cemetary at Ur which was dated to 3500bce and all the things in it appeared out of thin air in the blink of an eye

First the Royal cemetary of Ur dates after 3000 B.C.E., and is usually dated c. 2800 B.C.E.

And no I'm not saying that it all appeared in the "blink of an eye", that is your strawman. Obviously civilization requires a period of development before hand all of which is amply evidenced by archaelogical digs in Mesopotamia.

Quote

From the grave goods its obvious that at least two thousand years of civilisation had preceeded them.
and the sumerians king lists go back to about 5500bce for that area,

The quality or lack thereof grave goods proves little one way or the other in terms of the length of the period before they were deposited. As for the Sumerian king list, well.

a), THe authors made the assumption that each dynasty ruled the whole land, which is wrong, most of the dynasties were overlapping with other dynasties. In othert words each dynasty did not come after the pervious one.

b), The authors gave the rulers early one ridiculous reign lengths lasting in many cases thousands of years and also centuries.

The result is trying to determine relative chronology from the Sumerian king list is shall we say seriously problematic! THe first dynasty of Kish, which is generally regarded as historical is usually dated to c. 2900 B.C.E. The Kings "before the flood" are subject to serious dispute about their historical veracity.


Quote

and the end of the Ubaidian culture that was supplanted by those who later became known as sumerians is dated to the same period. Seems like they moved in and absorbed the indigenous locals into their population.

Well it appears that the ubiad culture flourished between 5500 B.C.E., and 4000 B.C.E.

See [archaeology.about.com]

It is old hat too assume that cultural change means a population movement. As for absorbing the locals, Semitic names exist in the list of the Kings of the first Dynasty of Kish, and are common on even the eraliest cuniform documents. If the Sumerians did in fact move into the area who in fact aborbed who? It appears that throughout its history, until c. 1800 B.C.E., Sumer had a population of Semitic and "Sumerian" speakers. So the Sumerian people were in effect a "bilingual" culture / people.

Quote

Hey presto instant class structure.

Class structure does not require civilization besides there is evidence of different classes prior to the "arrival" of the Sumerians.

As I've said before a lot depends about how you define "civilization", I was simply putting forward the "conventional" beginning of civilization in Mesopotamia.

Pierre



Subject Author Posted

Earliest civilization?

Glass September 07, 2005 05:46PM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Monsieur Sale September 07, 2005 06:19PM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Peski September 07, 2005 06:21PM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Pacal September 07, 2005 06:33PM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Peski September 07, 2005 06:50PM

And with that condition in mind

Katherine Reece September 07, 2005 06:55PM

Re: And with that condition in mind

Peski September 07, 2005 07:03PM

Re: And with that condition in mind

Katherine Reece September 07, 2005 07:16PM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Marduk September 08, 2005 11:06AM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Pacal September 08, 2005 01:19PM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Pacal September 08, 2005 01:40PM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Mihos September 12, 2005 04:46PM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Marduk September 12, 2005 07:26PM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Mihos September 16, 2005 04:17PM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Mihos September 09, 2005 11:44AM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Pacal September 10, 2005 09:57AM

Re: Earliest civilization?

Mihos September 12, 2005 03:35PM

Are there any earlier civilizations?

Glass September 07, 2005 06:47PM

Re: Are there any earlier civilizations?

Peski September 07, 2005 07:01PM

Re: Are there any earlier civilizations?

Mihos September 07, 2005 07:12PM

Re: Are there any earlier civilizations?

Hans September 08, 2005 06:31AM

Re: Are there any earlier civilizations?

Mihos September 09, 2005 11:11AM

Re: Are there any earlier civilizations?

Mihos September 09, 2005 11:12AM

Re: Are there any earlier civilizations?

Monsieur Sale September 11, 2005 10:55AM

Re: Are there any earlier civilizations?

Marduk September 11, 2005 04:14PM

Re: Earliest civilization?

darkuser September 08, 2005 09:09AM

Civilization - defination / standards

Katherine Reece September 08, 2005 09:46AM

Re: Civilization - defination / standards

Pete Clarke September 08, 2005 10:02AM

Re: Civilization - defination / standards

Warwick L Nixon September 08, 2005 10:07AM

Re: Civilization - defination / standards

Peski September 08, 2005 10:11AM

Re: Civilization - defination / standards

Katherine Reece September 08, 2005 10:14AM

I left out Art...DOH!!!

Warwick L Nixon September 08, 2005 10:24AM

Re: I left out Art...DOH!!!

Katherine Reece September 08, 2005 10:36AM

Re: Civilization - defination / standards

Dave L September 08, 2005 11:44AM

LOOK FOR NUMBER 4

Mihos September 12, 2005 05:56PM

Mihos....

Katherine Reece September 12, 2005 06:10PM

Re: Civilization - defination / standards

darkuser September 08, 2005 03:55PM

Re: Civilization - defination / standards

Dave L September 08, 2005 04:16PM

Re: Civilization - defination / standards

darkuser September 08, 2005 04:04PM



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