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May 5, 2024, 10:15 pm UTC    
September 06, 2007 02:16PM
jhemmestad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [...] To be clear, during the time of the
> Middle Kingdom, if some Hebrews did perhaps
> live in Egypt, would they not have called
> themselves 'Hebrews'? Is there any evidence
> about what they would have referred to
> themselves as?

Something you might like to consider is the rather surprising fact that in the whole of the Old Testament, "Hebrew" occurs only 14 times, and "Hebrews" only 20. By contrast, "Israel" occurs 1798 times (although the latter includes several references to Joseph's father, as well as references more broadly to "Israelites", "the people of Israel", "the men of Israel", etc.).

Of the 14 mentions of "Hebrew" in the Old Testament, the first mention occurs in Genesis 14 when reference is made to "Abram the Hebrew" (interestingly, this is before God's decision to change Abram's name to Abraham following the establishment of his covenant).

Although there is some variation in the biblical use of the term "Hebrew(s)" ('ibri(m)), the term is most commonly applied to Israelites by foreigners or by those wishing to cast aspersions on them, or, conversely, for Israelite self-designation to foreigners. It also occurs mainly in the description of two historical periods: the sojourn of the Israelites in Egypt and Philistine-Israelite relations during the reigns of Saul and David.

For instance:

Potiphar's spurned wife's reference to Joseph in Gen. 39:13-14: And when she saw that he had fled out of the house, she called to the men of her household and said to them, ‘See, he has brought among us a Hebrew to insult us; he came in to me to lie with me, and I cried out with a loud voice [...]. (see also Gen. 39:17).

Exodus 2:6: When she opened it she saw the child; and lo, the babe was crying. She took pity on him and said, ‘This is one of the Hebrews’ children’.

1 Samuel 4:6: And when the Philistines heard the noise of the shouting, they said, ‘What does this great shouting in the camp of the Hebrews mean?’ [...].

1 Samuel 13:19: Now there was no smith to be found throughout all the land of Israel; for the Philistines said, ‘Lest the Hebrews make themselvs swords or spears’; but every one of the Israelites went down to the Philistines to sharpen his ploughshare, his mattock, his axe, or his sickle [...].

1 Samuel 14:11: So both of them showed themselves to the garrison of the Philistines; and the Philistines said, ‘Look, Hebrews are coming out of the holes where they have hid themselves’.

1 Samuel 29:2: As the lords of the Philistines were passing on by hundreds and by thousands, and David and his men were passing on in the rear with Achish, the commanders of the Philistines said, ‘What are these Hebrews doing here?’

**********

Far be it for me to read too much into this, but you might be interested in comparing and contrasting the following two biblical verses. In one, sharing food with Hebrews is described as being "an abomination to the Egyptians". In the second, the identification of the Hebrews as shepherds is indirectly linked to the term 'Hebrew' itself, "for every shepherd is an abomination to the Egyptians".

Genesis 43:32: They served him [ie. Joseph] by himself, and them by themselves, because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews, for that is an abomination to the Egyptians.

Genesis 46:33-34: [Joseph in conversation with his family who have arrived from Canaan:] When Pharaoh calls you, and says, ‘What is your occupation?’ you shall say, ‘Your servants have been keepers of cattle from our youth even until now, both we and our fathers’, in order that you may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination to the Egyptians’.

Interestingly enough, the generally accepted etymology of the word 'Hebrew' ('ibri(m)) is understood to mean 'one who crosses over', 'to cross over', 'one from the other side (of the river)', etc. More recently, a further etymological association has been proposed by Daniel E. Fleming which links the Hebrews ('ibri) with the earlier 'ibrum attested in Mari texts, and which refers to the mobile pastoralist communities that ranged across southwestern Syria during the Mari period.

**********

The other interesting biblical verse is this one, which distinguishes between 'Hebrews' and 'Israelites' in the same context:

1 Samuel 14:20-21: Then Saul and all the people who were with him rallied and went into the battle; and behold, every man’s sword was against his fellow, and there was very great confusion. Now the Hebrews who had been with the Philistines before that time and who had gone up with them into the camp, even they also turned to be with the Israelites who were with Saul and Jonathan.



Damian






_______________

My dear sir, in this world it is not so easy to settle these plain things. I have ever found your plain things the knottiest of all.

- Moby-Dick by Herman Melville

________

'I am beginning to believe that nothing is quite so uncertain as facts.

- Edward S. Curtis

________

'We are coming now rather into the region of guesswork', said Dr Mortimer.
'Say, rather, into the region where we balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination, but we have always some material basis on which to start our speculation', [replied Holmes]
.

- The Hound of the Baskervilles by Arthur Conan Doyle

________

'It never does to be too sure, you know, in these matters. Coincidence killed the professor.'

- "Novel of the Black Seal" by Arthur Machen
Subject Author Posted

Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

jhemmestad August 29, 2007 03:55PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Byrd August 29, 2007 05:22PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller August 29, 2007 11:33PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Ritva Kurittu August 30, 2007 03:23AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Mihos September 26, 2007 07:46PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Thadd October 01, 2007 10:48AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Hermione August 30, 2007 05:08AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller August 30, 2007 01:52PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Roxana Cooper August 30, 2007 07:18PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller August 31, 2007 12:39AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Roxana Cooper August 31, 2007 12:28PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Thadd September 03, 2007 10:27PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Thadd September 03, 2007 10:25PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Pacal August 31, 2007 08:27AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Roxana Cooper August 31, 2007 12:32PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Byrd August 31, 2007 02:35PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller September 01, 2007 01:49PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Roxana Cooper September 02, 2007 10:19AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Rick Baudé September 02, 2007 11:38AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Roxana Cooper September 02, 2007 04:58PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Thadd September 03, 2007 10:34PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Roxana Cooper September 04, 2007 09:42AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Thadd September 04, 2007 09:56AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller September 04, 2007 03:44PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Thadd September 04, 2007 08:35PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Roxana Cooper September 05, 2007 09:41AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Thadd September 05, 2007 01:15PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

jhemmestad September 06, 2007 09:05AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Jammer September 06, 2007 11:00AM

Note ...

Hermione September 06, 2007 11:13AM

Re: Note ...

Jammer September 06, 2007 11:19AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 06, 2007 02:16PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

jhemmestad September 06, 2007 04:37PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 07, 2007 11:44AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Thadd September 08, 2007 06:26PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 13, 2007 03:00PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Roxana Cooper September 14, 2007 06:17PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 01, 2007 12:47PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller September 01, 2007 03:00PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 01, 2007 03:44PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller September 02, 2007 01:38AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 02, 2007 12:10PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Hermione September 02, 2007 12:32PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller September 02, 2007 02:11PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 03, 2007 04:07AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller September 03, 2007 01:03PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 04, 2007 11:12AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller September 04, 2007 03:31PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 05, 2007 09:14AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Pacal September 06, 2007 01:27PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller September 06, 2007 02:19PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 06, 2007 04:37PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Thadd September 08, 2007 06:30PM

Also ...

Damian Walter September 02, 2007 12:42PM

Re: Also ...

Doug Weller September 02, 2007 02:21PM

Re: Also ...

Roxana Cooper September 02, 2007 05:06PM

Re: Also ...

Thadd September 03, 2007 10:39PM

Re: Also ...

Roxana Cooper September 04, 2007 09:46AM

Re: Also ...

Thadd September 04, 2007 09:53AM

Re: Also ...

Roxana Cooper September 04, 2007 11:36AM

Re: Also ...

Thadd September 04, 2007 08:37PM

Re: Also ...

Damian Walter September 05, 2007 09:03AM

Re: Also ...

Thadd September 05, 2007 01:19PM

Re: Also ...

Damian Walter September 05, 2007 04:26PM

Re: Also ...

Roxana Cooper September 05, 2007 09:44AM

Re: Also ...

Thadd September 05, 2007 01:23PM

Re: Also ...

Roxana Cooper September 05, 2007 02:25PM

Re: Also ...

Thadd September 05, 2007 05:27PM

Re: Also ...

Roxana Cooper September 06, 2007 09:57AM

Re: Also ...

Damian Walter September 06, 2007 02:19PM

Re: Also ...

Thadd September 08, 2007 06:39PM

Re: Also ...

Pacal September 06, 2007 01:41PM

Re: Also ...

jhemmestad September 07, 2007 09:10AM

Re: Also ...

Hermione September 07, 2007 09:18AM

Re: Also ...

Thadd September 08, 2007 06:42PM

Re: Also ...

Pacal September 12, 2007 09:52AM

Re: Also ...

Roxana Cooper September 14, 2007 06:23PM

Re: Also ...

Thadd September 17, 2007 07:42PM

Re: Also ...

Thadd September 08, 2007 06:54PM

Re: Also ...

Pacal September 12, 2007 10:33AM

Re: Also ...

jhemmestad September 12, 2007 11:02AM

Note ...

Hermione September 12, 2007 11:16AM

Re: Also ...

Thadd September 17, 2007 07:52PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Roxana Cooper September 02, 2007 10:29AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 02, 2007 03:23PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug Weller September 02, 2007 03:43PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 07, 2007 11:47AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Thadd September 03, 2007 10:24PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 07, 2007 11:54AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 07, 2007 11:42AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 07, 2007 02:46PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

jhemmestad September 08, 2007 05:11PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug M September 09, 2007 06:08AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Thadd September 09, 2007 08:23AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Doug M September 09, 2007 08:11PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Pete Clarke September 13, 2007 06:54AM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Damian Walter September 13, 2007 03:02PM

Re: Hebrews in Ancient Egypt

Mihos September 26, 2007 08:45PM



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